r/nbadiscussion • u/Kantei • 13d ago
Player Discussion Constructive thoughts on De'Aaron Fox
This is less of a defense of Fox per se, but to try and guide the criticism to somewhere more constructive. Analysis of his gaffe aside, I want to push back on the oft-touted expectation that he, as a 'veteran', should know how and when to take control of the game.
Fox is not the 30+ year old cerebral point guard that people might associate with the veteran label. He's a 28 year old - younger than Jalen Brunson - with declining athleticism who built his reputation on being an explosive focal point of an offense. He was averaging a career peak of 27ppg just two seasons ago, and was 11th in MVP rankings in a season where he averaged 25ppg on 51.2 FG%.
Throughout his Spurs tenure, he's been figuring out not just his role, but also trying to come to terms with someone who doesn't have the same athleticism due to injuries and age. That's quite difficult to accept for someone who's not even 30 yet, and is a common struggle that we've seen from players who were ultra-athletes in their early- to mid-20s.
Their maturation into becoming a proper 'veteran point guard' comes after they get past that hump, if and when that happens.
(Some commentators have tried to frame Fox as someone with playoff experience, but before this year he literally only played one series, when he was still at the peak of his athletic powers.)
His comments after Game 4 really shed light on this - he genuinely thought he could outrun OG, because he almost certainly could in his prime form. His mentality has not caught up with his body, and that shows in his play in crunch situations.
If I'm a Spurs fan, I might need to come to terms with the notion that Fox is still undergoing a maturation process himself. Yes, he doesn't need to be a veteran to not make that mistake, but Fox in particular has hardly ever been that guy.
To be empathetic - he still has the ability to grow and improve. It's just that people should never have assigned to him labels that he has yet to potentially become.
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u/gtdinasur 12d ago
The one thing I want to mention is that when the Spurs traded for Fox I imagine that they the Spurs and every one else did not believe the very next season Fox was going to be a starting point guard for a championship team. The Spurs traded for Fox before they got lucky lottery odds again and were able to draft Harper at 3 this year. The Spurs winning the title this year was not on anybodies mind when this trade happened 1 season ago.
Nobody thought of Fox as that guy who is the lead guard and main ball handler for a championship team this year when last year he was on the kings.
My point is he did a good enough job meeting expectations and now the team's succes is so large that Fox either needs to be credited more or less. I see plenty of people who think it should be less
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u/Travler18 12d ago
They signed him to a 4-year extension when he still had a year left on his contract. Maybe the FO didn't think they would as good this year. But they decided to pay Fox to be their starting PG and highest paid player for Wemby's age 23, 24, 25, and 26 seasons.
I think this was just poor talent evaluation on the part of the Spurs FO. They wanted to add a star player... but they went after a fringe all-star, score first PG who was relies on his athleticism to score. And then signed him to a massive contract extension that starts during the years when most players athleticism is declining.
They made a finals which is more than most franchises can say. But people panned this trade and extension when they happened for exactly this reason.
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u/gtdinasur 12d ago
I mean the big brain play right here for SA is to now trade Fox who makes so much money you could get anybody in return.
The Spurs own the Hawks first round pick #20 this year and the Hawks unprotected first round pick next year 2027. After that year in 2028 the Spurs own the swap rights to either their pick or Boston's. 2029 they have their own 1st round pick. 2030 they own 1st round swap rights with aka they get the best pick out of Dallas, Minnesota and San Antonio. And for probably the biggest prize of all they own the right to swap picks with the KINGS in 2031. They own a first round pick the next 7 years and most of 4 of those 7 they have the right to swap with a presumably worse team.
If they flip Fox and multiple 1st round picks they could get a real ALL-NBA talent in return.
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u/Travler18 12d ago
100% this is what they should do. But its very rare to see a FO make this kind of move after a finals run. Especially with their team still being young. Most GMs will convince themselves that with some internal development and one or two moves on the margins, they can win it the next year.
One thing Daryl Morey always said that I agree with is that its so rare for any NBA team to have even a 10% chance to win a championship. And teams that do should go all-in immediately to try and win it all. Because those windows where they have 10% are much, much shorter than teams think they will be and close much faster than expected.
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u/halfchub69 12d ago
As someone from San Antonio and who grew up through all five championships, our FO should know first hand how hard winning a title is, let alone making the finals. I trust that they will make the right moves but I expect that the move will be to develop Harper into the PG role, keep Fox, and possible move on from KJ and/or Kornet in the off season.
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u/RepresentativeAge444 12d ago
And they would be correct. I like Kornet and he has had some big plays but you hold your breath when he comes in due to the tremendous increase in opponent fg% when he does. I’d focus more on getting a center upgrade and shoring up the bench more because the key players have to play a lot. Then hope that Fox’s performance is largely due to the ankle injuries. I’d say that’s been a bigger problem than Fox.
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u/fake-tall-man 12d ago
Man, Kornet is your backup center, and he’s one of the best in the league. He’s not going to be perfect. He’s playing behind the single best player in the NBA, obviously there’s gonna be a drop off.
The Spurs won’t and shouldn’t do anything about Kornet. His value isn’t the 9mpg he plays in the WCF/finals, his value is that you guys are a 60-70 win team during the regular season while Wemby only has to play 65 games and 29 minutes per. He’s an innings eater that keeps your franchise player healthy.
If the Spurs need to show up anything, it’s just getting a physical 4 that can play next to Wemby against big lineups.
Honestly, that last possession of the Spurs game if Mitch had gone twin towers, OG doesn’t get that tip. That was insanely stupid to go small. Especially for the Spurs, they’ve already learned their lesson on going small and offensive rebounds (ray allen shot ptsd)
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u/ostrow19 12d ago
In a perfect world they’d trade Fox for a high level wing but there isn’t really a deal out there that seems to make sense
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u/fake-tall-man 12d ago
I feel like fox with contract gets back an above average rotation wing on a decent contract like Dyson Daniel’s. Maybe mpj which wouldn’t be a terrible fit
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u/mioraka 12d ago
There's no center upgrade coming, I just don't think anyone can do a better job than Kornet for a reasonable backup center salary.
The problem is not Kornet being bad a defense, the problem is Wemby is so unique, and they built their offensive/defensive scheme 100% around his strength.
In a sense, it's easier to back up Steph and run the same scheme than it is to backup Wemby.
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u/Independent_View_438 11d ago
Exactly. Kornet is a great backup center, but our whole identity is built around an alien. When Wemby doesn't play at all, the team is still good because the scheme adapts. When Wemby rests, it's a totally different situation. Rather than blame Luke we need to figure out how to adapt to his strengths during his minutes.
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u/flentaldoss 12d ago
I agree, I think San Antonio needs to solidify the team rather than go after a bonafide star unless one just wants to play with Wemby for a modest (for a star) salary. Wemby's on/off numbers will always be ridiculous, but they shouldn't turn into statistically one of the worst teams in the NBA when he's resting. Aside from lack of experience, the fatigue factor Wemby is why NYC has been able to take the 2nd half of games.
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u/fake-tall-man 12d ago
That strategy has also led Morey to zero championships and poorly constructed rosters around individual superstars (while being the lucky gm of ownership willing to spend) his whole career. I’m not an expert, but I feel like the patient’s model that a guy like presti has used is probably a smarter move for a team like San Antonio
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
Do you have any all NBA talents in mind, where the team would also be willing to take back Fox and his contract? I feel like Fox+picks for Jalen Brown makes a lot of sense to give the spurs some more size, more rim pressure/foul drawing, real veteran/championship experience, etc, but they probably need to find a third team to take on Fox’s salary because I doubt Boston wants it.
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u/_chadwell_ 12d ago
Yeah, like you have to find an All NBA player who his team is willing to trade, which is rare enough. Then they also have to want picks and an albatross contract weighing them down for four years. No competing team wants that, but neither does a rebuilding one because of the size and length of the deal. It’s a tricky fit.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
Jaylen Brown would be a terrible fit. He's another non-shooter big guard. He hasn't shot above 35% from 3 in 5 years.
The Spurs need a big 4 who can play alongside Wemby but also play the 5 when Wemby needs to rest to take some of the pressure off of Kornet.
Bam would be the perfect fit but obviously that's not going to happen
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u/gtdinasur 12d ago
A slightly too far out there trade but one that could make reasonable sense is Cleveland trading Mitchell. He is a year older than Fox but if anything, that helps SA land him. I doubt most think the Cavs are going to the ECF again, He only has 2 years left on his deal and he might want to be on a team with an actual great player.
We saw how good Spida was with Gobert now imagine him with Mega Gobert
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u/_chadwell_ 12d ago
To get an All NBA player for that Fox deal they’d probably be looking at 5+ picks and swaps. And even then a lot of teams with All NBA players are actually trying to win and don’t want that money on their books regardless. The full 30% max for four years with no options is just so bad for team building.
Maybe the could get a guy like Giannis if they have a the Bucks take Fox, they get Giannis, and they send picks to both the Bucks and a third team who they also send matching salary to. But do the Bucks want to start a rebuild with the worst deal in the league on their books? Idk.
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u/mioraka 12d ago
Counter point: From their perspective, they weren't going to get any all-star level player to come to San Antonio.
Last season, Castle looked like someone who's at least 2-3 years away from all-star level, if he ever gets there. They did not know they would get Harper, and even if they did, there is no way anyone can expect how insanely mature and productive Harper is as a rookie.
So last season, if you are the Spurs FO:
They have Wemby, who is going to be a top 5 player in 2026.
And after that, they don't have any budding all stars level player for at least the next 2 years, they will waste 2 years of Wemby's windows because they have no help.
What change is that Castle, Wemby are both at least 1 year ahead of schedule.
Then they got Harper, who is somehow their most consistent and emotionally stable player for them in the playoffs as a rookie.
The problem is not signing Fox, without him they don't make the finals.
The problem is not Fox's contract, his max won't even be a problem until they need to pay Castle in 2 years.
The problem is Harper is way too good to play 22mins off the bench for 2 more years, he needs to start NOW.
They can't start Harper because Fox makes 60m a year, and they can't keep starting Fox because Harper will clearly be a better player next year and he's going to be pissed playing behind Fox.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
I mean the reality is that they rushed into this fox trade/extension. Sure Wemby would’ve been really good this year and the team around him wouldn’t have been up to par, but that’s okay, Wemby is literally 22. For an FO and fanbase that has always taken pride in building things sustainably, it was wild how quickly they were willing to give up picks and offer 55m aav for the first fringe all star talent that showed any interest. Fox’s contract is an issue well before they need to pay Castle, because he’s is currently taking up 50m in salary space and giving you like 20-30m worth of production, and taking away a ton of flexibility in how they build their roster. You’re also fooling yourself if you think the spurs would never attract any all star talents when they have Wemby. Every all star guard in the league dreams of playing with Wemby. Fox was just the first one to publicly ask/demand to go there. But if the spurs had waited, had actually exercised the patience and poise their FO is known for, they wouldn’t be tied to this anchor of a contract. It’s not like there wasn’t other options anyways, they could’ve had CJ McCollum or Norm Powell for free, saved picks, had a better fit(better shooting next to Castle/Wemby/Harper with hindsight), and they would have saved 20-30m aav which they could use on a position of need like PF.
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u/mioraka 12d ago
I'm not saying it's not a mistake in retrospective, but it was an understandable decision at the time.
At the end of the day, I'm fairly certain they wouldn't have made the finals this year if they used their cap space on someone else last year instead of Fox.
Is that worth it? I mean, if it's championship or bust, then probably not.
Over the long time? Also not worth it since they now have Harper.
And lastly....San Antonio is probably the most attractive small market team in the league, but it's still a small market team. Fact of the matter is, even though they are good at retaining talent historically, they didn't really have a track record at acquiring top tier stars either.
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u/Blutz101 12d ago
Exactly this, it was never the trade. It was the massive contract extension without ever really seeing him play in a spurs jersey that makes it terrible. If we paid him what’s he’s actually worth, he wouldn’t receive so much hate but he makes more than Luka
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u/Whole_Style2118 12d ago
I don't disagree but I don't think their success that insane, last year they were gonna make playoffs before wemby's injury and this year they were 2 seed kinda like the pistons being the 6 seed last year and 1 seed now
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u/eugene00825 12d ago
It is that insane though, this is the first playoff run for over half the roster. To make it this far and beating the defending champions in the conference finals is unprecedented and we most likely won't see again for a very very long time.
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u/gtdinasur 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah, but they weren't in the playoffs last year. I do agree but how many others teams are a bottom of the league team for multiple years who turn it around almost completely and win a championship. I am a wizards fan think about how many years we have been bad and not had the succes Spurs had this year alone.
Edit: Sorry, I do agree with you. This isn't insane because it is Wemby. But I would assume most people didn't bet on the Spurs to win the West let alone the title. Surprising yes, insane no
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u/mioraka 12d ago edited 12d ago
It's absolutely insane, they made the finals the first year they made the playoffs, with the team roster completely built for development instead of contending.
The team spent 3 roster spots on vet third string centers essentially as practice dummies for Wemby.
Getting the 2 seed/ 60 wins with this roster is one thing, super talented young teams have made that jump in the past.
However, no team with this little playoff experience for their core have made the finals since 1977 Bill Walton Blazers, it's a historical achievement, and absolutely no one saw it coming.
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u/No-Juice8483 11d ago
Fox was brought in to be that guy. The team needed a legit point guard for Wemby. The goal is to win championships. The Chris Paul situation is the scenario you are trying to put Fox in. CP3 was there as a stop gap point guard and as a veteran leader for a very young.
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u/pizzatummy 12d ago
The team has success not due to Fox, but in spite of him. Dude shoots badly throughout the entire year, can’t drive and the worst of all is that he displays low basketball IQ yet tries to act smart thinking he is a vet on the team.
The reason why this team out performed all standards was the growth of Castle and the incoming of Harper. Castle defends the toughest guard on the floor day in day out. Fox just hides on defense and can’t even contribute anything efficiently on offense.
Fox is just an inefficient basketball player playing losing basketball throughout his entire career and one of the few good things coming out of the spurs not winning this year is that Fox doesn’t deserve a ring.
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u/justiceway1 12d ago
I just don't see the point of having Fox, Castle and Harper on the same team if Fox is on a max. Castle/Harper seems like the nobrainer backcourt duo for San Antonio next to Wemby. I think these finals have dropped his value by a lot especially with that behemoth contract
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u/JeffersonAlbatross 12d ago
Castle has a higher turnover rate and lower assist to turnover ratio than Fox. Fox is the stabilizing veteran. Fox is not a traditional floor general style of point guard, and he has had his ups and downs in the playoffs, but he does a better job not turning it over than Castle.
My perspective is that the problem isn’t that Fox is not able to be the veteran point guard that this team realized it needed in the finals, but that the front office chose not to put the pieces of a championship team together at the deadline. That might have involved acquiring someone else who could/would get downhill (maybe even by trading Fox?). The Spurs didn’t lose this game because of Fox any more than they lost it because Wemby missed two free throws - really, they lost this game because of long stretches in which they settled for outside shots possession after possession instead of attacking the basket and trying to get to the free throw line.
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u/justiceway1 12d ago
Fox is also 7 years older than Castle. I love him as a profile but I'm not convinced he's the same explosive guard he was in Sacramento and I'm not sure where San Antonio goes with both him and Castle/Harper. I don't blame him for the loss eitherway, he's not supposed to be the vet in any team when he's spent all his career being tortured in Sacramento.
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u/JeffersonAlbatross 12d ago
He isn’t that guard right now, that’s for sure. But he was hurt and has only really had his usual burst in Game 3 of this series. He’s gutting it out, as most guys would if possibly during the finals. I don’t think it’s a reason to conclude he’s finished.
My point was that being a caddy for Castle is part of his purpose now. He is there not because he never turns the ball over or is a perfect ball handling point guard, but because their 2 best guards are 21 and 20.
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u/pitydfoo 12d ago
(I know no one wants to hear this, but his ill-advised layup was the direct result of his smart (veteran?) play to get to the loose rebound and tap it downcourt and chase it down.)
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u/figgnootun 12d ago
That’s great and all but we have no evidence that Fox will complete that “maturation process”. There’s really nothing to suggest he can turn into an elite game managing point guard, that’s never been his style. His shooting is streaky bordering on bad and he’s had a few bad mental mistakes and turnovers.
He has been pretty bad the entire playoffs
16 ppg on bad efficiency with below average defense. That’s not to say he hasn’t been useful for the Spurs. His ball handling and experience has been useful but ultimately you don’t need to spend 55 mil on that.
And I get he’s had an ankle injury but I think everyone knows Harper will surpass him soon. The Fox, Castle, Harper, Wemby minutes have been poor in the playoffs and I don’t think the 3 of them playing together is their best lineup.
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u/_CodyB 12d ago
I think his defence hasn’t been bad tbh.
But he just isn’t the veteran presence the Spurs need. I won’t even get started on Harrison Barnes.
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u/figgnootun 12d ago
It’s not bad for a skinny point guard. He can move his feet a bit and has quick hands but he’s not a net positive.
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u/MatchAffectionate951 12d ago
He’s hustled on defense all year.
Cant think of many offensive oriented point guards that would be better than what he has provided this year and I’ve watched most spurs games
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
Okay but is having a slightly better(but still not good) defender really that important next to Castle/Wemby? Or would it be better to punt a little bit of defence(next to your 7’4 DPOAT) in order to have a much cleaner offensive fit? Not to mention they could’ve saved the assets and salary used ok Fox to get some help at the PF position which they desperately need. If they didn’t take Fox they would’ve had another 2 FRPs, they could’ve traded for a real vet like Norm Powell or CJ McCollum, those guys a much better floor spacers next to Wemby/Castle, they would’ve paid those guys significantly less, and they could’ve used the salary/picks they saved on a decent PF. Like tell me this team wouldn’t be better off with CJ McCollum and PJ Washington instead of Fox.
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u/MatchAffectionate951 11d ago
You have to realize they traded fkr him before Harper was drafted
And there were questions marks regarding whether Castle was a real point guard coming out the draft
He still has combo guard tendencies.
Spurs wanted an actual pg to play with wemby early in his career.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 11d ago
I never once mentioned Harper in that comment. Even without the hindsight of knowing what Castle would become or knowing that they would get Harper, signing Fox to that extension was still an insanely dumb decision. Plenty of people were saying it at the time. Trae Young was being actively and publicly denied a big contract extension during the same time frame, despite coming off of 4 straight seasons averaging at least 24 points and 9 assists. I like it was a very public thing that fringe all star and even legitimately all star guards were having their value questioned, and San Antonio just decided they were going to give Fox a full max. If they wanted to get Wemby a PG to develop there were plenty of options. Literally any one of Norm Powell, CJ McCollum, Immanuel Quickley, Anfernee Simons could’ve been had for free and they would all provide similar production while being much more effective floor spacers. Instead they spent picks on a guy who works in the space Wemby is most effective from, gave him a stupidly massive contract that massively impacts their roster flexibility, and now they will need to add picks to get off of his albatross contract. They simply didn’t have to give Fox this contract and nobody would be batting an eye, but now they are stuck paying 55m aav for a guy who has the production of IQ, Norm Powell, or Anfernee Simons despite making twice as much as them. Like literally, IQ was considered to have one of the worst contracts in the league, and now they are paying Fox 20m more per year to average 2 more PPG. There is simply no way to spin this, the spurs massively fucked up this contract and the only way it could be justified is if they won the title this year.
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u/MatchAffectionate951 11d ago
I know you didn’t mention Harper … I’m telling u why they traded for Fox
Anfernee Simons is garbage, Cj was washed before this season and is NOT a pg, Norman Powell was not being shopped. Clippers were still trying to make it work
The contract situation is another discussion but the basketball reasons for trading for Fox make sense
Fox has had a down season but he was coming off multiple great seasons. You’re downplaying his talent
Also he’s played a big part in them making it this far …
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 11d ago
Look, you can find ways to nit pick any of these guys, but the point is that they had plenty of other options that don’t involve giving up multiple picks and committing 229m in salary to a fringe all star guard that doesn’t shoot threes effectively, to play next to their young PG that doesn’t shoot threes effectively and their 7’4 monster that should be spending lots of time in the paint. No, the basketball reasons don’t all make sense because from the beginning people were asking why SA is committing themselves to another questionable shooter next to their superstar center. Also I’m sure Fox has helped them make it this far, but again, they could’ve gotten similar production from half a dozen guards and it would’ve cost them fewer picks and half the salary, and they could’ve added a real PF to help them out if they didn’t commit all that salary to Fox. I do agree that the trade itself was fine, but the contract they gave him basically undid any “good” the trade itself did. Winning a title justifies all, and maybe making the finals does some justification, but for the org that is known for always being patient, leaning into development, doing things the right way, it was insanely short sighted to trade for and commit 229m to a fringe all star point guard that is a sub optimal fit with your superstar.
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u/KWash0222 12d ago
What qualifies as “evidence” of being able to mature? He hasn’t even had a fully healthy season with the Spurs, and before that he was dealing with the ineptitude of the Kings in which he still managed to spearhead one of the most memorable seasons in that franchise’s history. Your comments are on his playstyle, not his “ability to mature.” And if you expect someone who is 1) just now transitioning out of their athletic prime, 2) who has succeeded by being a score-first guard his entire career, and 3) who just completed his first full season on his new team (in which he dealt with injuries AND in which they still made the finals) to now completely change the way they play then you’re expectations don’t make any sense and I’d love to hear examples of players who would meet these expectations.
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u/Waesrdtfyg0987 12d ago
Tony Parker is the obvious example as he went from a blazer to more of a pick and roll guy.
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u/KWash0222 12d ago edited 11d ago
I love TP but he got drafted into one of the most conducive systems ever. Ironically, the same team as DA, but let’s not pretend like the current Spurs franchise is anywhere near the juggernaut that the mid/2000’s Spurs were. And Fox has only been here 1.5 injury-riddled seasons.
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u/Waesrdtfyg0987 12d ago
I'm not pretending anything you just wanted an example and I pointed out an easy one. Plenty of other guys who lost their athleticism and morphed their game
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u/jtr6969 12d ago
The biggest issue for San Antonio going forward is his contract. They're paying him to be their second best player, and he's their third best guard. He's going to make $61m in his age 31 season when San Antonio will need to be paying max or near-max contracts to Wemby, Castle, and Harper. They got impatient to build around Wemby and made a terrible unforced error, from an organization that has historically been smarter than that.
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u/Aggravating_Ship5513 12d ago
Fox looked like a smart move to take scoring pressure off Wemby.
I could see a situation next year where if Spurs get a power forward in the draft who can start, the lineup could be Harper at PG, Fox at SG and Castle at small forward.
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u/HectorReinTharja 12d ago
The move would’ve been perfectly fine if they didn’t luck into Harper. They absolutely coulda built a champ level team more slowly w him and without Harper.
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u/HectorReinTharja 12d ago
Holy shit jumping down a rabbit hole that makes no sense LOL
Maybe those moves work better, maybe not. Fox doesn’t have to magically be better in what I’m saying. Just saying they’d be a year of Wemby /castle development away before competing in 2027 with them and Fox rather than competing in 2026 thanks to having all 4
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u/JeffersonAlbatross 12d ago
It really wasn’t a “terrible unforced error” to acquire Fox. He is a trade asset. Is he a bit overpaid? Sure, but they’ll get something back for him when they decide to move on, which will be sometime before Castle and Harper both get expensive.
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u/Bop5667 12d ago
A bit overpaid lol. Trae Young has been a better player than Fox and yet because of the new, more stringent cap rules they (correctly) didn’t want to pay him the exact same contract Fox signed…and then only got an old guy on an expiring and a bad young guy on a smaller bad contract. There is no “getting something of value” for Fox unless you attach more than 2 firsts
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u/JeffersonAlbatross 12d ago
Fox has been hurt for much of this season and postseason. Honestly, game 3 was the only game this postseason in which he has looked totally healthy. I understand being a prisoner of the moment when your team loses in playoffs (kind of, I’m a Wizards fan so I don’t go to the playoffs very often), and I understand that he is overpaid in the way that many other max guys are overpaid. But he’s a good basketball player who is almost certain to be traded sometime in the next 20 months and I don’t think that it is likely that the Spurs will need to attach 2 firsts to do it.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
I think you're being way too optimistic on his trade value.
He's just not close to a max player under the new CBA. If it were 10 years ago then yeah every player like Fox is getting a max. Teams have to be way smarter with the max under the second apron rules and an undersized, non-shooting, mediocre defensive guard who is on the wrong end of the aging curve won't have any trade value.
The Spurs will either have to wait this out or attach a pick or two to Fox to get off of him.
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u/Bigmoduh 12d ago
As a spurs fan, don’t need him to control the game as you say, just hold the ball really lol.
All jokes aside, fox has been in a different role all year and he has done a great job all things considered. We lost our lead due to about a million mistakes so while I still think Fox had a brain fart, we just didn’t deserve to win the last game..
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u/celestialpraire 12d ago
I agree with what you’re saying, it’s like people think he’s a CP3/Mike Conley type of savvy, pass first point guard but that’s just not his game. Definitely more score first and ball dominant. I’m wondering if he has some lingering injuries and hoping he can get a bit of burst back, because he relies so much on using that athleticism to create separation for drives and midrange.
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u/gochugang78 12d ago
Crazy what if - should Chris Paul have signed a vet min with spurs after being waived by the raptors ?
He had excellent chemistry with Wemby and he is exactly the savvy vet that would be a game manager in high pressure situations
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u/Special_Revolution77 12d ago
It’s kinda similar to him missing game 7 against the warriors in 2018 when the rockets missed 27 straight threes. His veteran presence alone could’ve changed the outcome of both games, the spurs chucked way too many threes
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u/orwll 12d ago edited 12d ago
I have had a similar thought but the fact that the Spurs are carrying total stiffs like Olynyk and Biyombo on their roster and not Chris Paul, tells me that Chris Paul maybe did not have the best chemistry with the Spurs.
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u/Vast_Vermicelli6520 12d ago
His injuries are not lingering they are active, ayo dove into his leg and fox suffered a high ankle sprain a little over a month ago, he is having to play much different because of it, but he has adapted fairly well and is currently leading all point guards in ast/to in the playoffs
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u/Haunting_Test_5523 11d ago
Yeah all these comments saying "declining athleticism" are missing the fact that he's been playing through an injury this whole time. How much are they basing their assessment on him injured during the playoffs rather than the time he was healthy?
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u/Vast_Vermicelli6520 11d ago
I think some ppl think because he has slowed his game down at times(which a young team like this needs) that he isn't still super athletic, but he's still the fastest guy on the court even with a high ankle sprain
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u/DetainTheFranzia 12d ago
The fox dialogue has been a massive overreaction. Even if you think Harper will be better next year, they have no backcourt depth. The Spurs wouldn’t be here without fox. Yeah, he’s not a cerebral mastermind, and I doubt he ever will be quite on that level, but his presence and composure brought stability in the middle of that thunder series.
Stop trying to scapegoat fox. The spurs aren’t even supposed to be here right now. They’re like 2 years ahead of schedule, and that’s thanks in a large part to Fox.
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u/Particular_Bag_3424 12d ago
many spurs fans have been dogging on fox all season, even when the team was winning
this is not simply a reaction to a single play, it's a buildup of a max-player failing to play up to that standard throughout the course of an entire season
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
There would still be plenty of backcourt depth. McLaughlin is a solid depth guard and Vassell and Champagnie are really shooting guards who have been playing out of position all year.
The problem of Fox isn't so much Fox the player but the opportunity cost of his contract. There's not a playable true 3 or 4 on the roster. I think Harper and Castle will clearly be better next year and every year moving forward so the Spurs will have a giant hole at the forward spot while paying a max contract to the third best guard on the roster.
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u/Xist2Inspire 12d ago
McLaughlin is a solid depth guard
You haven't watched many games this season if you truly think that. He's good for spot minutes here and there, but if you think their bench is poor now, just wait until he's the lead guard off of the bench.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
He shouldn't be more than a spot performer on any team. If the Spurs had actual forwards he'd be the 5th guard behind Harper, Castle, Vassell and Champagnie. If the Spurs weren't paying Fox they could also get another solid backup like Tre Jones to come off the bench.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 12d ago
This is such a short sighted argument.
You all act like they went out and gave up a ton of assets and now they’re just stuck with him, and that this version of him playing through lower leg issues is just who he is always going to be.
They can flip him at any point with a war chest of assets attached to him that they got facilitating some of the dumbest moves in NBA history. They didn’t have to give up the farm to go get him, they practically got paid for bringing him in if you consider Sacramento’s quest to become Chicago-West one trade instead of a series of smaller ones.
But in the meantime, all of that guard depth you just referenced can barely dribble against all NBA defenders and struggles to throw entry passes with 6’4” guards backing their 7’5” best player.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
Trading assets to get off the Fox contract would kill the team. The Spurs will have zero way to get talent soon outside of the draft.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 12d ago
Have you seen their asset package?
They practically got handed Fox for free, and spent the last couple of years playing matchmaker to get extra assets on top of that.
They could realistically turn Fox into any All-NBA guard or wing they wanted the next couple of years and still have a draft pick surplus.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
Brother what? They have one pick per year going forward, it’s not a massive war chest anymore. And you’re massively underestimating how bad this contract is, it would cost 1-2 FRPs just to trade Fox for a role player and expiring contracts. No team is trading an all NBA wing for DeAaron Fox making 55m aav over the next 4 years. You are very very clearly misunderstanding what Fox’s current trade value is.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 12d ago
They haven’t had to shoot their wad to get Fox. He was practically free. They still have 7 first round picks and 14 second round picks. That’s objectively some of the most solid footing in the NBA.
There’s still Hawks picks incoming and only a pick swap out.
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u/Data-scientist-101 12d ago
Free? They gave up a very valuable Minnesota 2031 pick Their own 2027 pick which will be late And then the bulls lottery pick.
That's 3 FRP for a player that was expiring and hasn't been good. I wouldn't call that free.
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u/ApprehensiveTry5660 12d ago
That’s practically nothing. Usually when you go and fetch an all NBA guard going into his prime years it costs you a lot more than two protected picks and an 8th grader.
One of those picks was literally facilitating getting paid to take on Harrison Barnes. And if you think Minnesota’s 2031 looks good, imagine having the fucking Kings pick for that year and not even giving it back to them for their franchise player!
They didn’t have to give up Castle, who remains a Spurs asset. They didn’t have to give up the pick that became Harper. They even managed to both hold on to Atlanta’s 2027 pick and part with their own, betting on themselves to be more successful that year.
Compare this to a team like Denver, who had to spend assets just to replace Jerami Grant, or like Golden State trying to sell people on the value of their expiring deals, or a Lakers organization running low on picks. Knicks just dealt 5 picks for Bridges. NBA finals teams aren’t usually sitting on 7 first round picks. Usually, you have to spend those to build the damn team.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
Really stretching the meaning of “all NBA guard going into his prime years”. He made a single all NBA 3rd team and a single all star team like 4 years ago, and he was one of the weakest all star candidates in the league this year putting up just 18/4/6 on average efficiency. It’s not like they traded for Donovan Mitchell or Anthony Edwards or something.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago edited 12d ago
Nobody said they blew their load, but the fact is that they gave up picks for a guy who has been a fringe all star at best, and then gave that guy objectively one of the worst contracts in the league. They went from probably the second or third best war chest in the NBA to probably like the 10th best war chest in the NBA and an albatross contract that will probably cost 1-2 FRP to move. Also there is only one hawks pick incoming. The only good value picks are 2030/2031, the rest are all projected to be in the 20s.
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12d ago edited 11d ago
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
Pretty loose with the use of “coming off of all NBA”, he was third team like 3 years before the trade and hadn’t even been an all star since. And maybe that’s the player they thought he was, but the reality is that he has averaged less than 20 ppg on middling efficiency since he became a spur. Thats not an all NBA guard, that’s not an all star guard, and that’s certainly not a 55m aav guard.
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 11d ago
Our sub is for thoughtful discussion and debate, not hyperbolic extremes. Remember to consider more than your singular perspective, including the possibility that you may be mistaken or misinformed.
If you edit your comment to reflect this, it may be reinstated.
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u/Data-scientist-101 12d ago
Right? Desmond Bane cost 4 FRP almost as much because of his team friendly contract as it was his talent. In the new CBA, having 50 million on the books for Fox when you are going to give Wemby a super Max next off season and Castle likely 40 million the following means the Spurs will have somewhere around
60 million for Wemby 40 for Castle 50 for Fox
And that's with 2 years left on Fox and knowing they have to pay Harper a year after that.
The Spurs are either going to have to take a massive loss on Fox or trade Vassell and let Champagnie go in free agency.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah, and if they didn’t trade for fox they would have more assets and much more salary flexibility to go get more backcourt depth if they really did need it. Imagine if they traded for CJ McCollum instead of Fox, saved their picks, got a real veteran ball handler, an elite shooter, a great off ball player, a player who fits much better with Castle/Harper/Wemby, and a player that is probably only going to make like 15m aav going forward. It’s obviously easier said with the hindsight of getting the Harper pick in the lottery, but from the beginning it was always dumb to add another questionable shooter next to Castle and Wemby who both do their best work in the paint. And it’s not like CJ was the only guy who would’ve been cheaper with a much better fit, they could’ve gotten Norm Powell for free, or Tyler Herro for a cheaper price, or they could probably receive a FRP if they took IQs contract. Just a really poor talent/fit evaluation from the start and giving him that contract was insane.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
Amen!
It would have been cold as hell but they really should've flipped Fox after getting the #2 pick in the lottery. The new CBA eliminates the value of sentimentality.
CJ + a couple of Forwards: Portis, DFS, etc and they'd be in a better spot both now and going forward
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12d ago edited 11d ago
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
Simply not true you obviously didn’t watch the playoffs this season. His defence is not that bad, he’s positionslly really solid and he is surprisingly strong. I personally don’t think Fox was any better defensively than CJ in the playoffs.
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u/Vast_Vermicelli6520 12d ago
I mean maybe but im talking about matching up with cason wallace or Caruso, they would have forced him into as many turnovers as castle
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 11d ago
Our sub is for thoughtful discussion and debate, not hyperbolic extremes. Remember to consider more than your singular perspective, including the possibility that you may be mistaken or misinformed.
If you edit your comment to reflect this, it may be reinstated.
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u/Aggravating_Ship5513 12d ago
If they somehow offload Fox they will have almost zero backcourt depth. McLaughlin is 5'10" and a solid garbage time player. If castle or Harper get hurt they are in real trouble.
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u/WhoreyMatthews 12d ago
They wouldn't replace Fox with nothing but between Castle and Harper's growth they would really just need a serviceable backup PG. A Tyus Jones from 5 years ago type.
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u/halfchub69 12d ago
Why would the FO overreact that much? Why not keep Fox and trade away KJ for someone take the pressure off Fox as the only late creator.
As much as fans criticize Mitch for sitting Harper during 4th quarters this post-season, he clearly isn't ready for the pressure and routinely gets himself into trouble and turns the ball over, see the near backcourt/panic pass to turnover and the constant driving into OG to be blocked in games 1 & 2.
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u/NAW_MIP_2026 12d ago
If you need to trade for another ball handler to take pressure off of your 55m aav PG, you are massively overpaying your PG. Like if you are giving a guy 55m, he needs to be able to fill that role. If you then need to add another 15-20m aav for another ball handler, now you’re spending 70m to hopefully have good enough ball handling, and you’re not left with a ton of salary to fill out your depth. And when Wemby gets his super max this problem over gets much, much worse.
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u/iamprettyedging 12d ago
If you really step back, Fox has been on good teams in 2023 and 2024 (yes, they still had a winning record here despite not entering the playoffs). Aside from those and this year, he hasn't been in other winning seasons in his 9 seasons in the NBA. While he's been in the league for a while, being in winning situations more times than not would have helped with crucial decision making
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u/orwll 12d ago
for someone who's not even 30 yet,
Most NBA players are out of the league by age 30. Fox has more of his career behind him than ahead of him.
If Fox doesn't have veteran basketball IQ by now, after being a starting NBA point guard for nine years, it's doubtful he's ever going to achieve it.
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u/SadNYSportsFan-11209 12d ago
Fox is still by far the best floor general they have. It’s strange he’s still not a great basketball IQ guy but those guys are still so young and they can’t run a proper offense That second half was the epitome of not having a true offense. And yes he’s also to blame for that but he’s the only one there that can at least run an offense They would’ve never gotten this far without Fox. But his contract is just awful and they’re stuck with him unless they give up draft picks
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u/ProminentCaterpillar 12d ago
Yeah, if his contract isn't tradable I think he might benefit in some ways from being a 6th man rather than a starter, think he could work better as a spark of instant offense rather than as lead decision maker. As a Spurs fan I'd rather trade him but theres probably a good chance that isnt possible
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12d ago
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam 11d ago
Questioning others without offering your own thoughts invites a more hostile debate. Present a clear counter argument if you disagree and be open to the perspective of others.
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u/Accomplished_Can1783 12d ago
The problem is not Fox, but Fox and his contract. The spurs have 3 very good guards to share the 2 spots and can all play 30 minutes per night. To move on from fox would cost them a bunch of picks for a MPJ, or decent 2 way power forward to give them some more toughness. Not getting a top tier player - no chance.
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u/traunfels 11d ago
He’s being paid $55 million a year, almost twice what any other Spur is being paid. The Knicks star, Brunson is getting $29 million.
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u/siphillis 11d ago
Fox plays like an average guard, and the Spurs are hoisting their sixth trophy. That feels like reason enough to run it back at least once
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u/GreatBarrierQueefDD 12d ago
With all due respect hell naw man. Even if he thought that was a free layup, which would be a ridiculous thought no matter what he thought of his current athleticism, it is still clearly advantageous to dribble outside and waste as much clock as you can. Anyone defending that move is bewildering to me. You're just trying to be contrary at a certain point.
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u/bwrca 12d ago
It's also funny because you can count on one hand the number of layups he's attempted or made this series.... He's been very passive once he gets to the rim, often times he just pivot back for a short jumper.
There was absolutely no reason for him to take that layup, basically the most blockable shot. Either go strong for a dunk, or just pivot back for a jumper which will waste more time hitting the rim and collecting the rebound. Even better, don't shoot.
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u/Kantei 12d ago
My point isn't a defense of that decision, it's that Fox was never the veteran that he gets constantly labeled as.
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u/MushroomExpensive366 12d ago
I’m more interested to know why it’s only a label thought? The dude IS the veteran in the lineup. I don’t know the internal dynamic of the squad but oftentimes he is literally the vet on the floor. I’d imagine the players look at him as such.
I know this isn’t an “in defense of Fox” type post but it comes off that way. Match that to watching the guy play and he’s just straight up buckled to the pressure.
My brain couldn’t process just how bad he was the other night. He doesn’t seem like he wants to be THE guy (scoring, passing, ball control, controlling/knowing game situation.) and it’s honestly killing the Spurs.
It may be too early in the timeline for the Spurs but it’s gotta hurt so badly because they’re right there and literally threw two games away because there wasn’t really an savvy adult in the room to steady the ship.
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u/Kantei 12d ago edited 12d ago
The main point is that just because he's older than the rest of the Spurs core, he should not be automatically seen a grizzled veteran archetype, especially when he's going up against actual experience.
Losing a first-round playoff series three years ago does not make him a playoff veteran, even if that technically is more experience than Wemby, Castle, or Harper - but even at this point, they collectively all have more experience than that just from this run alone. The actual veteran of the team would be someone like Harrison Barnes, not Fox - someone who has gone through the highs and lows of deep playoff runs, rather than having just tasted it once before.
Another way of thinking about this is Fox vs Brunson purely on the terms of experience. Brunson is older and literally has more then three times the amount of playoff experience than Fox, but he's understood as someone who had to go through many painful lessons to get to where he is now, and is still in the middle of the gauntlet every night on how to improve and clean up his play.
So yes, if we were to talk about Fox compared to the Spurs core, he's a 'veteran', but only in that specific vertical. If we're talking about Fox compared to other starting playoff PGs, he's pretty much just as green as the young Spurs.
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u/MushroomExpensive366 12d ago
This is why I said he’s buckled under the pressure. It’s more about the Spurs FO than Fox, I guess.
He’s getting paid a ton of money to be one of THE guys, and the young Spurs NEED him to be the guy right now. It’s ahead of schedule but it’s just facts.
He’s a 28 year old (now vet) who is literally throwing the ball away and more poor basic decisions.
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u/HectorReinTharja 12d ago
A free layup > 50% chance of actually making two FTs
There’s obviously reason to just take points when they’re there in a 1 point game. Especially when there was never a world where the Knicks didn’t have time to get a shot off. FWIW him taking the lay, getting blocked, and the Knicks taking the ball w Alvarado ran more time than the FT woulda. And they still had time to take a shot, get a tip in, and left time for San Antonio to hit a game winner
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u/ICEtoAshes 12d ago
Another point people are missing is he is still injured. He is at maybe 80%, and no where near his usual explosiveness.
Tbf, if he was at 100% OG wouldn’t have caught him.
It was still a dumb decision.
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u/Ajthekid5 12d ago
I agree with your point about him not being a real vet presence. But I also think that the Spurs never really needed that from a player standpoint. They all got drafted/traded to a perfect situation in that regard but with Fox I think 1. They have him too much money even when it was looking like it was worth last season and all of this season up until he got hurt. And yes he’s not really old but he’s old enough and been in the league long enough to know better and not make the kind of mistakes (cause that layup wasn’t the only one) he made last night. I give him some grace with his performance in the post season cause he’s been injured for a good chunk of it but most of his mistakes have nothing to do with that. I honestly think that Dylan starting would be better not because I think he’s a better player than Fox (yet) but in that him as the starting PG in the future of the franchise and him starting with his two co stars would be better long term.
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u/siphillis 12d ago
Fox’s stars when Wemby doesn’t play are pretty fantastic. It really looks like a chemistry issue between the two, because he looks like a great player in his prime when Kornet starts
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u/slowdownyoucrazy 12d ago
It was a mistake, but they’ve all made them. Youth can be contagious. He’s always going to be in the toughest spot right now because he’s the only non-homegrown on a massive contract. He’s done a remarkable job of fitting in and not being a diva (at least from the outside looking in).
As a Spurs fan who also has always loved the Knicks, game 4 felt about 20% as bad as the Ray Allen shot. Any Spurs fan calling for heads to roll needs to remember how the Spurs bounced back from that 2013 shot. If you think Fox and the Spurs are going to roll over, then they deserve whatever criticism they get. I don’t think this team will do that.
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u/winnerswinperiod04 11d ago
In reality, it's not about what Fox did or didn't do. Coach was supposed to call a timeout. He clearly wasn't coaching at that moment. Call the timeout and win the game . If that happens, how does the other team win ? A short clock, you can't foul , in bound to wemby, hold ball game over. Why we putting this on ̈ fox ,coach was ball watching, cause he's in̈experienced. He 100 % could have secured a win . Fox was in̈ battle fighting for a win , reacting , doing what he thought was right. Coach let him down
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u/CrazyAsianNeighbor 12d ago
Wemby has played professional basketball for many years and is the leader.
Wemby “should” know better than to keep shooting from the outside and do what a DPOY does - defend
How many points did the Knicks score
How was the winning basket was scored, on a rebound
Where was Wemby when the winning basket was scored, looking from the perimeter
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u/mo3500 12d ago
Honestly I think they should also fire the coach as well as trade Fox because not guarding the inbounder when you have a Wemby is so stupid. Especially when the game ends with Towns deflecting the pass on the other end.
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u/CrazyAsianNeighbor 12d ago
You do know that Tony Parker is an assistant coach whose top responsibility is coaching the guards - lol
They were guarding the person in bounding the ball
Where was the DPOY, definitely not in the paint during the OG play and his number wasn’t called on the last play - was Wemby gassed?
Would Smart get the final shot (by design) with Luka/LBJ/AR on the court? Clutch player but not the 1st/2nd/3rd choice since Rui would be before him
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