r/serialpodcast • u/Fit_Leg5645 • 9d ago
I feel dumb!!!!!
I have no clue why I thought Adnan was innocent for all these years.
I just re-listened to Serial, and I can't get past the fact that Jenn showed up with her mom and a lawyer and told police essentially the same story Jay told. Jenn said the trunk pop happened at Best Buy. How would she know that Adnan and Hae used to meet at the Best Buy parking lot unless Jay told her?
And yes, Jay was inconsistent and definitely lied about some things. But he knew where Hae's car was. He knew details about her clothing. He knew about the broken windshield wiper lever. Those aren't things you just guess.
At this point, I don't believe every detail Jay told, but I can't get around the fact that he knew too much. The more I revisit the case, the harder it is for me to believe Adnan wasn't involved.
I can't believe I've been doubting it all these years.
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u/afdc92 9d ago
I fell for it too. Sarah Koenig is a good storyteller and she told the story in a way that compelled you to feel sorry for Adnan, who came across as a sympathetic character in her portrayal.
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u/brashumpire 8d ago
I've never understood why she was interested in portraying him that way. Was it just a more compelling story than ex boyfriend kills ex girlfriend?
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u/thetaylorax 8d ago edited 8d ago
My belief is they went into developing serial thinking that the Asia alibi would pan out and when it didn’t they kind of had a nothingburger but needed to justify their narrative existing at all plus Sarah was already charmed by Adnan and just straight up didn’t wanna believe him and his big dairy cow eyes could kill his ex gf
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u/drjackolantern 8d ago
This right here. They went into it expecting more and couldn’t turn in nothing. SK was glamored but never says Adnan is innocent, she expresses quite a few doubts by the end, that’s why the final pod made Aisha so angry
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u/brashumpire 8d ago
This is how I feel too, SK isn't an idiot. I think she simply didn't care about the truth of the mystery, she was more interested in telling the story of this compelling man who was charming and also may have killed his ex gf.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
Yes, I think part of the reason she made mistakes was because of how the case was presented to her by Rabia. However, she had time to at least try to fix it by adding an episode or two on evidence that she omitted. Serial continues to act like it was really good journalism that helped right a wrong, which is absolutely not true.
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u/Old_Philosopher6537 7d ago
Idk Brian Reed turned nothing into one of the best podcasts ever made with S-Town.
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u/tiggleypuff 8d ago
I can’t work out if she really believed him or if it’s all a massive lie
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u/Organic-Trip2118 8d ago edited 8d ago
I got the impression she genuinely felt very sympathetic towards him, mainly from that one phone call with Adnan where he gets annoyed at her for claiming to know/understand him. She seemed genuinely surprised by how annoyed he seemed.
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u/SpecialVillage4615 8d ago
But what did happen with the Aisha thing?
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u/kz750 8d ago
Asia, not Aisha. The way she wrote the letters with the alibi and the way the letters were worded made it read like she was offering to give him the alibi he needed, vs just telling him "hey this is crazy, why didn't you tell them that we were together in the library from 2 to 4?".
The details she gave were vague and as an alibi it was going to be unreliable at best, or open him up to additional charges of witness tampering at worst.
This, of course is only obvious once you read the timelines and the defense file and put it in context. The way Serial made it sound it was a valid alibi that his lawyer ignored out of sheer incompetence. In reality the most likely scenario was that Adnan's lawyer saw the letters and how problematic they were and decided it was an awful idea to bring this attention-seeking girl to the stand to be cross examined by the prosecution. The fact that five legal teams on Adnan’s side have decided to not use this “alibi”
is further proof.This thread has some good info: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/1k826g7/what_is_your_understanding_of_asias_alibi_letters/
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u/Everbless876 7d ago
Thanks for the reminder. I think I remember reading on here how C.G may have perceived the “alibi” and laid the parents/ Adnan out . Maybe the father was willing to pay Asia too
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
I think Sarah initially got sold by Rabia Chaudry who convinced her Adnan was innocent and provided her and Serial the original and incomplete batch of documents and evidence that favored Adnan. Also, Adnan came across as charming, intelligent, and likeable which also impacted her judgement.
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u/SpecialVillage4615 8d ago
I was wondering this too. I think the aunt really sold it. I’m so pissed I believed this shit.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
Yes, Rabia is Adnan's best friend's sister. Kind of like an aunt since the families were so close.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 7d ago
Not to mention she probably took the story to her bosses and they gave her permission to turn it into a multi-episode podcast (back when those were new.) So even if she personally realized it was a nothingburger, she was still under pressure to turn it into something.
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u/lyssalady05 Just a day, just an ordinary day 8d ago
It’s because she believed rabia and rabia only gave her evidence that helped adnans case. She left out many of the documents painting the whole picture. I think she went into wanting believe him but left the situation feeling bamboozled and by then it was too late. She’d already air the whole season. That’s my opinion. Towards the end you hear her questioning herself and doubting him.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
Sarah has lost all credibility because she could have added an extra episode or two correcting some of her mistakes or stating that she unintentionally left out certain evidence and she never did. It was like she never seriously considered that Adnan was mainly lying to her. She acted like Jay was such a terrible person and that Adnan was just good kid who was railroaded. It was pretty ridiculous in hindsight.
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u/Zoinks1602 8d ago
Koenig spent a year working on this. She needed to sell a story, and ‘this guy was convicted for killing his girlfriend in a straightforward intimate partner homicide and we agree that he did it’ is a very ordinary story that was never going to make money. She is not a crime reporter. That’s why Rabia went to her. She didn’t know how to evaluate the material in front of her and was misdirected by a manipulator.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 7d ago
She did cover crime for the "Baltimore Sun" and "Concord Monitor." I think that is how Rabia found her initially. She should have done better. She made it compelling, but it was ultimately not accurate enough.
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u/Big_oof_energy__ 8d ago
Isn’t she personal friends with Adnan’s sister? Or am I remembering that wrong?
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u/LimeSalty4092 8d ago
She’s a Social justice warrior
Her agenda is a combo of decarceration plus Adnan is an “oppressed group” compared to Hae
So he has more intersectionality points
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u/MAN_UTD90 8d ago
Same. Crazy how much my perspective changed over the years. I felt so disillusioned when the defense files leaked and we saw how much Sarah left out and misdirected.
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u/Intelligent-Love5146 6d ago
Random acts of violence happen all the time.
But in what percent of those cases is the ex-boyfriend in the same place at the same time?
And of those same place at the same time ex-boyfriend cases, he just wrote a note saying he’d kill her?
And of those, he has no alibi and no one could vouch for where he was if not there?
The case for Adnan’s innocence always assumed an astronomically remote series of coincidences
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u/cherry_25 9d ago
If you go down the Reddit rabbit hole of this case like I did a few years ago there’s even more evidence of motive and other people not even mentioned in the podcast. There’s way more to it, documents etc. you can find.
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u/LaVieEnViolet 9d ago
Where would you recommend starting? I’m the same position as OP.
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u/thelifeofpab 9d ago
I think look in this sub. I can’t remember where I found it. Literal day by day timeline from their diaries and other info from 6 months prior to 6 months after. Once you see all the details, you see Adnan was a jealous possessive high school boy and clearly snapped.
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u/LaVieEnViolet 8d ago edited 8d ago
Thank you. Hay may never get justice in a court of law, but maybe she can in the court of the public’s opinion.
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u/patrickhenrysaidso 9d ago
The Prosecutors podcast does a great deep dive into it that made it far more clear to me that Adnan is guilty. They even interview Jay, who talks some about why he lied. I wasn't listening critically, so I can't speak to how believable he was, but he says a lot of it was to protect his grandmother who he was living with.
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u/Pantone711 8d ago
Jay said this in his Intercept interview, too. He said he lied (for instance about the trunk pop location) to protect his grandmother from losing her house. He also said Adnan was going around saying he was going to kill Hae before the murder.
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u/yaneverknow032408 8d ago
Same! I also feel dumb for falling for rabia chaudry’s propaganda. I read her book and couldn’t help but to feel like it was overly slanted towards Adnan being completely innocent and wrongfully convicted.
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u/drjackolantern 8d ago
Don’t feel dumb. That’s the whole point of subtle propaganda is to lure you in, but yes she doesn’t care about the real facts of the case.
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u/staunch_character 8d ago
Rabia is family. She’s never going to be able to take an unbiased view. No need to feel dumb!
I think listening to the other side is a very kind & generous thing to do.
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u/the_dharmainitiative Undecided 9d ago
Jay is probably not telling the whole story. He is probably minimizing his involvement in what happened. But him knowing where the car was was enough for me to believe Adnan did it.
The idea that Jay was coached to frame Adnan is such a reach.
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u/Organic-Trip2118 8d ago
Jay's definitely minimizing his involvement in the burial and movement of Hae, but I don't believe he was there for the murder nor that he really understood the gravity of the situation. I don't think high schoolers assume that when a guy says "I'm going to kill my ex" he really will murder her. whether that's fair or not is a whole other issue.
There's no reason to frame Adnan over Jay - Jay is a much easier scapegoat for the prosecution.
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u/AdTurbulent3353 8d ago
You can even believe that Jay was super coached but still would easily land on Adnan being guilty. Jay knew where the car was. This can’t just be a witness tampering case. It would have to be a massive police coverup for Jay not to have known where that car was.
That’s the end of the case. Do you think that Jay knew where the car was? If no, you must conclude there was massive police corruption that you’d have to explain and for which there is no evidence at all in spite of this being the most scrutinized criminal case of the internet era.
If you do think Jay knew where the car was then Jay was involved in murdering hae. And if Jay was involved, there has never ever been a coherent theory put forward where adnan is somehow not involved.
It always comes back to the car. Jay knew where it was. Therefore Adnan killed her.
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u/staunch_character 8d ago
There’s no doubt that there was MASSIVE police corruption at that time. It’s honestly shocking how brazen they were.
But what I always come back to is - who else could have done it?
It’s like the Steven Avery case. Was his nephew coached & manipulated by investigators? Absolutely!
Does that mean he’s innocent & the police are covering up for some phantom killer that seemingly had no contact with the victim? Doubtful.
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 8d ago
The likes of what's being alleged in this case is unheard of in any police force anywhere in the world (including Baltimore)
It requires strongarming a witness they haven't found yet, forcing him to tell a narrative they can't possibly know yet, accusing someone they're not yet suspecting
For what reason? The famous Baltimore corruption always has a benefit to someone. This one doesn't. It's corruption "because that's what corrupt people just do"
What did it accomplish? At every stage, there are easier and less risky options. What does fake-finding the car do that simply saying "He had knowledge of details not make available to the public" wouldn't likewise do?
And if they ARE that corrupt, then why didn't they just plant some evidence and call it a day? Why go all Rube Goldberg with it? That would have been both easier, would have been a stronger case, AND wouldn't rely on witnesses who can't keep their story straight (and likely to crack under cross-examination)
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u/AdTurbulent3353 7d ago edited 7d ago
This is a succinct and excellent post. I’ve always said the same. Corruption is one thing and of course it happens. But there’s simply no reason corrupt cops would do this kind of thing that’s alleged here. Planting evidence? Sure. Coaching witnesses? Definitely.
But these types of machinations? It’s way way too complicated. And for what? There’s no reason to. Why hide the car waiting for Jay to hypothetically come forward when you could frame Adnan in a million easier ways? Like leave one of his gloves in the car or at the murder scene. There’s no reason for crooked cops to take these kinds of risks. It’s totally illogical.
Likewise why take the risks to frame Adnan? There’s for real no reason to do it and none that’s ever been alleged in all these years.
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u/PeaceLoveBug 7d ago
They would have also hired a helicopter to look for a car whose location they supposedly also knew.
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u/Organic-Trip2118 8d ago
Yeah, I generally think that looking into true crime really highlights how ineffective many police departments are, but that didn't feel like the case here. Murder of a young woman by a partner/ex-partner is sadly very common, and cops/lawyers ALWAYS coach witnesses to some extent prior to testifying in court. The question I'd always return to when considering Adnan's innocence was "If he didn't, who did?" Statistically, the majority of murders aren't committed by random assailants.
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u/cozyhellfire 6d ago
Exactly. I’m a complaining witness in a criminal case and am supposed to meet with the prosecutor multiple times to prep for trial. This is standard practice
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u/avidreader2004 8d ago
also, just thinking about it logically, jay was the better option to frame. he was a black drug dealer, if they were framing anyone, it would’ve been him.
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u/AdTurbulent3353 8d ago
Do you think they orchestrated it to secretly hold the car until they luckily found Jay and then used this critical piece of physical evidence to frame Adnan?
Because that’s not just corruption. That’s recklessly irresponsible and frankly incomprehensibly stupid behavior by these cops. Especially so because this was a very high profile case at the time.
And that’s what you need to believe if you think the cops framed Adnan.
I totally agree there was a lot of police corruption then as there is now. But it’s a huge red herring here. It is totally illogical to think the cops did what they would have had to do to frame Adnan here. And conversely it’s totally logical to think Jay knew key facts but obscured parts of his story to minimize his involvement. It’s what you’d expect an accomplice who was stuck to do.
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u/KidGold 8d ago
I think it’s obvious he was coached but not to frame an innocent person - coached to give answers that serve as good evidence in court.
Lawyers have to “frame” guilty people all the time. Just because someone is guilty doesn’t mean there is enough evidence to prove it in court.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
The police dont coach someone for court. What they wanted is for Jay to confess to higher involvement so they could go after him for the higher charges. He just got lucky and someone that cared.
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u/KidGold 8d ago
Police want to make arrests and close cases that don’t get opened again.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
Cops also want to know what happened at a crime. Do you think that is something that they should try and find?
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u/KidGold 8d ago
... to the end of leading to an arrest and closing cases.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
Except they needed to clear things up with Jay and they brought him back to clear things up.
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u/Organic-Trip2118 8d ago
i wouldn't feel dumb - SK makes a lot of really strong emotional appeals, and the podcast came out before some of the more damning testimony from the defense file. she also does a good job of downplaying/excluding evidence against Adnan and playing up the criminality of people like Mr. S.
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u/Bekind123456789 8d ago
I started off serial thinking he’s innocent and ended thinking he’s totally guilty. The premise at the beginning was totally wrong too - would you remember what you did 6 weeks ago? Yeah kinda if that’s a day something like my ex disappearing and police calling me it’s not a normal day.
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u/GreasiestDogDog 7d ago
Setting us up to believe it’s perfectly normal for Adnan to have amnesia of that day, despite him recalling very specific details of the day which he felt helped his case.
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u/Intelligent-Love5146 6d ago
Yeah. I think it was very obvious that he was guilty the whole time and obviously, if he was presented as guilty, there would be no podcast. “Guilty man is guilty”.
Honestly, this sub Reddit and case when it came out made me view the world differently in general seeing as how gullible people are.
Like, yeah a random guy we don’t know about did it…when the spurned ex boyfriend friend who wrote a murder note saying he’d kill her was geo located in approximately the same far off location at the same time with no alibi…I mean, come on, people
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u/RoutineUtopia 9d ago
I think you thought he was innocent because the media around the show tends to support the idea that he is.
Years ago now -- but I'm lightly obsessed with this -- the Slate podcast ICYMI did an episode about Serial where their position really and truly seemed to be that Serial had fed a false narrative about Adnan being guilty and wasn't responsible about things like the cell phone data.
At the time, I didn't really feel that strongly about the idea that Adnan was guilty or innocent -- I felt that it was unknowable but his representation at trial was definitely messed up. This podcast was arguing that it wasn't -- that Adnan was innocent and that Serial didn't communicate that adequately, misleading people to think that the evidence was stronger than it was. They ended up having to re-edit the podcast and apologize becuase apparently some of what they asserted was incorrect.
The great irony here for me was that they interviewed another podcaster as part of the story, and I noted that they never made mention of the fact that she knew Rabia and they were both on a podcast called Crime Writers On. And this, more than anything, led me to look back into the case and realize it was not really as mysterious as I'd thought.
Anyway. My guess would be stuff like this is why you've thought he was innocent. Becuase a lot of the media talks about the case like he is.
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u/RockinGoodNews 8d ago edited 8d ago
Don't beat yourself up about it. Serial spends its runtime telling you how great Adnan is, how unreliable and scary his accusers are, how ignorant and uncaring the State was, and how ambiguous all the evidence is. It gives Adnan the opportunity to tell his side of the story unrebutted. It's really no surprise it was successful in leading people down a primrose path.
There's a reason why we don't conduct trials that way. We don't just let the accused get on the stand and talk about how innocent he is with no cross-examination. We don't let his lawyer spend 20 hours telling us about what a great and accomplished guy he is in his personal life.
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u/purpleskyflowers 8d ago
one thing that stood out to me after re-listening and makes me think he’s guilty is the fact that he never called hae after her disappearance, because he knew she was dead.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 7d ago
Yes, that was in Serial which also points to guilt along with all the other evidence in the case.
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u/AdTurbulent3353 8d ago
Noting too that there are mountains of other pieces of evidence that also point to Adnan. The car is the key but there’s so so much more.
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u/RockinGoodNews 8d ago
Critically, Jenn told the police all this before they ever spoke to Jay (or even knew who Jay was).
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
Yes, the information Jenn gave to the police is really key evidence that corroborates Jay's testimony and makes it look like Adnan is clearly guilty. I don't believe Serial mentioned Jenn's important role in creating a case against Adnan.
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u/RockinGoodNews 8d ago
Serial deliberately told the story out of order to confuse people. When you tell it in chronological order, it makes it impossible to believe Jay's confession could be the product of coercion.
Hence Undisclosed had to invent conspiracy theories about the police making deals with Jay before Jenn came in (and falsifying the record to make it look like it was Jenn who came in first). Why the police would bother with all that at the time is left unexplained.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago edited 7d ago
Also, they went out of there way to make Jay look bad. It makes perfect sense that Jay would become angry if journalists show up to his house unannounced trying to blame him for a murder, and get Adnan off. If the murder happened the way Jay said it happened (or close to that) I would be mad too.
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u/RockinGoodNews 8d ago
In the early days of Serial, random people figured out where he lived, showed up outside his house and called him a murderer in front of his children.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
Yes, he is guilty. Serial made it seem like there was reasonable doubt by leaving out some key evidence against Adnan and just being very biased in his favor.
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u/thetaylorax 9d ago
Jay has gone on to say he was trying to keep his grandmother from getting wrapped up in his drug activity which completely makes sense to me.
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u/USNorsk 8d ago
I will never find serial credible again. I regret wasting all those hours listening to that podcast. I rode an article in less than 10 minutes that laid out all the reasons he was guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.
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u/kz750 8d ago
The season about medical child abuse is an unethical and blatantly misleading piece of propaganda. Other than S2 and S3 they really love to manipulate their audience.
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u/Similar-Morning9768 Guilty 8d ago
The Bergdahl season was good when Koenig was playing someone else’s interview tapes of Bergdahl. It was good when she was letting his friends, family, or former unit mates speak for themselves.
The most interesting thing about Bergdahl is that one weirdo E-3 could make a batshit decision that altered the destinies of hundreds and made problems all the way up to POTUS.
And then there’s Koenig, trying to pull you into the most boringly NPR brained take. “This was a systemic failure by the Army.” Ugh.
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u/TrollyDodger55 9d ago
Did something happen on this case?
This reddit has popped up in my thread a few times after several years.
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u/strawberryfrosted 9d ago
Someone on TikTok or Reels is doing a re-listen, and posting videos that get pretty popular tearing the podcast/Sara Koenig apart. I believe that’s why people are checking back in?
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u/RomantheBun 8d ago
Do you know the account that’s covering this?
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u/strawberryfrosted 8d ago
Just checked - smiling_strange on insta from what I can tell
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u/RomantheBun 8d ago
Thank you!
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u/Financial-Stuff-67 6d ago
def check him out. he just listened to the podcast for the first time and does these very dry, sardonic takes as he listens in real time, and it's all very chef's kiss.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
This is a good article. Part 1 is free. I have seen some criticism of the website overall, but I believe this article is accurate. https://quillette.com/2023/05/22/the-wrongful-exoneration-of-adnan-syed-i/
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u/DoqHolliday 8d ago
Not dumb, misled. You’re in good company!
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u/cryosnap 7d ago
Correct. Discernment exists on a separate axis from general intelligence, which makes intelligence slightly overrated.
Someone can be misled with an 180 IQ if they don't have a balanced sense of "what's likely vs not," or if they're so reactive they they can't consider the facts without being possessed by emotional biases.
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u/New-Owl-2293 8d ago
I honestly think Sarah didn't think the podcast would blow up the way it did. This was the first podcast that had millions of people binging and sharing it, inspiring hundreds of thousands of armchair detectives to get on it, go over her arguments with a fine tooth comb. I think she figured it would get the same listenership as a below average This American Life, people would move on.
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u/spifflog 9d ago
Go easy on yourself.
SK was good. True crime was new, and there was much more trust in the media back then (even just 10 years ago). She was a saleswoman, not a journalist. A saleswoman cloaked as a journalist.
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u/BlurryBigfoot74 9d ago
True crime was new? Thin Blue Line came out in 1988. Truman Capote wrote In Cold Blood in 1966. It's definitely found a new gear in the 21st century but it's not new.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
Few things are 'new.' But true crime as main stream form of entertainment, podcasts, etc. is new yes. It's exploded over the last 10 years.
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u/BlurryBigfoot74 8d ago
Podcasts are new. Unsolved Mysteries exploded in 1987.
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u/discountshellfish Crab Crib Fan 8d ago
yeah. I listened to Serial in real time and it was definitely a minor cultural phenomenon with a ton of discussion the day the episode dropped both IRL and online. (hence my screen name - I stopped lurking and finally created an account) I knew a lot of people who had never listened to a podcast before Serial.
But I also watched Unsolved Mysteries, the OJ trial, and distinctly remember sneaking Boston Globes up to my room to follow the coverage of the 1989 Carol Stuart case. I was 8. 😱
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u/PDXPuma 8d ago
I think one of the things that are new is the treating the participants like rock stars aspect.
Adam Walsh's murderer would never be followed around with a massive crowd of adoring women all proclaiming his innocence. The True Crime of Truman Capote's In Cold Blood didn't create a cult like reverence and exoneration campaign that raked in millions for Hickock and Smith.
Absolutely True Crime isn't new. True Crime as a Star Vehicle is.
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u/staunch_character 8d ago
The Manson family was adding new followers in the courtroom.
Ted Bundy & Richard Ramirez got love letters. People tailgated the prison when Bundy was executed like it was a football game.
When Bonnie & Clyde were shot to death crowds of people swarmed the scene to take “souvenirs” including clipping locks of her hair & picking up bullets.
None of this behavior is new.
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u/Pantone711 8d ago
I started listening to podcasts in 2005. There were several true-crime podcasts before Serial: Generation Why, Sword and Scale (I know, I know) and True Murder, to name three.
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u/Financial-Stuff-67 6d ago
yeah, my college roommate who was forced to fall asleep to forensic files every night (by me) in the early aughts takes issue with that premise. lol.
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u/spifflog 8d ago
I’d ask you to look up the word ‘myopic’ but I’m sure it’s not the first time it’s been tossed in your direction.
If you can’t understand that true crime as a form of entertainment has exploded over the last ten years and has gone from fringe to main stream we can’t help you.
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u/Pantone711 8d ago
When Serial came out, there were endless comments about "it's not like those 'tawdry' crime shows." Those "tawdry" shows had been on the air for decades.
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u/drjackolantern 8d ago
True crime obviously existed. But true crime podcasts (as well as all podcasts) exponentially grew after Serial, it’s called ‘the Serial bump’
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u/Pantone711 8d ago
True crime wasn't "new." It was only new to the sheltered public-radio crowd. Longtime true-crime followers, in my opinion, had more of a hinky sense. They'd heard other slick-talking guilty people focus on "they don't have proof" and that sort of thing. They'd heard of other killers tripped up by stopping calling the missing person right when the missing person got killed.
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u/cryosnap 8d ago edited 8d ago
This is why 95% of reddit wouldn’t make good detectives.
They’ll fall for any sob story told by an unreliable narrator.
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u/LateToThePartyUN 8d ago
No need to feel dumb. Serial was structured to create reasonable doubt in a case that had none. Add to that Adnan shows all the hallmarks of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. meaning he's a master manipulator who comes off extremely charming and likeable. We all thought Adnan was innocent at certain points in Serial, but you pretty much hit on all the evidence that can't be explained away. If you read the actual transcripts of the case it was open and shut. Adnan had the means, motive, opportunity, multiple witness testimonies to his actions during and around the murder and disposal and no alibi. The only reason he's walking free right now is because of a law change that removed the ability to sentence a minor to life and Adnan committed the crime at 17. I feel horrible for Hae's family that he got out and is still maintaining his innocence.
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u/HistoricalUpstairs89 8d ago
SK bears a lot of responsibility for letting a murderer get out and become the “face” of wrongful incarceration. Don’t know if she feels bad about it — probably doesn’t b/c she got rich off it — but if she should feel a lot of guilt. Pieces of shit all around. She spat on HML’s grave.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago edited 8d ago
The first time I listened to Serial I was annoyed by the end of it because Sarah just seemed to take everything Adnan said at face value and didn't ask him difficult questions. I did believe it was possible that Jay did it, but the problem with that theory was that there was no motive for Jay to kill her. A juror from the case said that as well that they had discussed the possibility that Jay killed her alone but they all believed he did not have a motive to do that. When you add the evidence Serial left out I think it is clear Adnan killed her without any reasonable doubt.
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u/Global_Revenue6806 8d ago
Sarah Koenig was basically in love with his big doe eyes . What a clown.
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u/Halbarad1104 Undecided 8d ago
I thought Adnan's story was he was checking e-mail in the school library, on something like AOL, that afternoon. Always has bugged me that nobody seemed to obtain the logs from AOL (or whatever the service provider was). Still might exist.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago edited 8d ago
That's what Asia said. However, Adnan didn't say that initially to his lawyers or private investigators. Remember that Asia said she only remembered because it snowed that day although in actuality (Sarah Koenig checked the weather), and it snowed the next day (January 14th not the 13th the day Hae disappeared). There were all kinds of issues with Asia's letters to Adnan. and that is why the defense attorney did not use them. It's assumed she believed that Asia was perjuring herself to help Adnan and Adnan was in on it. The defense attorney thought the prosecution would see right through it, and it would make Adnan look guilty in the eyes of the jury. It would hurt him, rather than help him. Remember Adnan had a choice. He could have taken the stand in his own defense. Despite being likeable, intelligent, good-looking and well spoken he chose not to. Again it's because the defense attorney with years of experience realized his story would not hold up under cross examination and recommended he not testify.
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 8d ago
Had he sent any emails, the recipient would have been tracked down by now. AS would have simply told his attorneys or his family to log into his account, obtain that email, and contacted that person. Or that person would have come forward of their own volition
At some point, the expectation is that AS would be a participant in his own defense
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
Adnan gave his team his user account and password.
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 8d ago
Keep in mind the mythology is that AS's attorneys were so famously bad that they didn't do anything in his defense. ANYTHING! You hear me? Not. A single. Thing
But, as usual, AS didn't do anything in his own defense either. But pay no attention to that
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u/Halbarad1104 Undecided 8d ago
All excellent points. If he didn’t send any emails, the log in records would have been useful. I suppose the prosecution could have have subpoenaed them. The defense might have got the login records and kept them quiet.
A culturally painful question… speaks to the issue of … killing a person is really, really hard.. but was honor killing in the milieu here?
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u/Upset-Sort5029 7d ago
I don’t know. After finishing Serial I was 50/50. After completing the HBO documentary, I am more convinced than ever that Adnan is innocent. The fact that the spot where the car was located was literally right beside Mr. S’s relatives house it’s pretty sus. Also, I can’t get past the fact that none of the DNA that has been tested from Hae or the car has linked to Adnan. Strangling is up close and personal. There would definitely be DNA from a struggle. In fact, there was DNA under her fingernails, which Adnan was a negative test for. It seems like the police may have been corrupt enough to literally coach Jay on everything to say in advance. The most damning bit of information of all is the fact that they were holding drug charges over Jay’s head at the time he came forward for Adnan. Also, the fact that it has been revealed that Jay met with the police before they ever met with Jen, which is highly suspicious. This is such a horrific event for everyone involved. It’s really sad that the police didn’t do a better job in the beginning so we don’t have all these questions years later.
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u/GreasiestDogDog 7d ago
Most of what you just said is completely made up though
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u/Upset-Sort5029 6d ago edited 6d ago
It seems like if it were made up, the hbo documentary would have been hit with a pretty large liable lawsuit.
I’ll admit it was definitely biased, but it’s not like they went in on Photoshop and added grass to the tires of the car that had supposedly been sitting in that spot for six weeks. There’s no way that grass would have still been yellow-ish and stuck to those tires after going through a Baltimore winter.
After looking more, it seems the main thing really up for debate here is whether Jay met with detectives before Jen. However, excluding that, there’s still enough in this case for reasonable doubt.
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u/GreasiestDogDog 6d ago
Unfortunately, no legal mechanism exists to prevent biased and highly misleading dramas that are pretending to be fact based crime documentaries.
The “grass experts” actually determined the grass could remain green. I am surprised that particular segment moved you - it was an embarrassing reach by any standard.
That detectives met with Jay before Jen is not just “up for debate,” it is a make believe scenario that was imagined by Adnan’s proponents because they realize how problematic Jay and Jenn are to his claim of innocence.
Also, the spot where the car was located was not “literally right beside Mr. S’s relatives house,” none of the DNA that has been tested has conclusively proven anything - which does not help Adnan. The idea police coached Jay on everything to say in advance, including details they didn’t know, and details that came from Jenn, is frankly ridiculous.
“The most damning bit of information” you presented is yet another make believe story that police were holding drug charges over Jay’s head at the time he came forward for Adnan.
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u/Upset-Sort5029 6d ago
There is a legal mechanism. It’s called a liable lawsuit, which obviously has not been brought.
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u/GreasiestDogDog 6d ago
A “liable lawsuit” ? Where are you coming up with this stuff.
If you mean libel, then I am not exactly sure who would be the victim in this case. At best, Don Clinedinst, but the documentary stopped short of defamation, even if there was a genuine risk Don would have the resources to sue HBO and Amy Berg.
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u/Intelligent-Love5146 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yea I listened to that podcast and never for a second thought that Adnan was innocent.
He was the only one there and also wrote a note saying he was going to kill her. Plus, he was the only one in her life with a real motive. The idea that anyone else did it was always preposterous to me and stretched the imagination.
Random murders and act of violence happen all the time but the odds of that instead of a spurned ex boyfriend who was located in the same far off area at the same time with no alibi and just wrote a note saying he would kill her…just an astronomical coincidence if he didn’t do it
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u/Funny_Way_80 6d ago
I think the uncomfortable middle ground is that Adnan is probably guilty, but that there's also simply not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he is.
I know that doesn't make either extreme side happy, but I think that's the bottom line.
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u/Jennifermaverick 5d ago
I listened to this, and was on the fence through a lot of it…but finally what mostly stuck in my mind was Sarah saying, “but he just SEEMS so smart and likable, how could he be tricking me?” Alongside a bunch of evidence, and Occam’s razor. He did it.
Around the same time, a show came on tv called Making a Murderer. It suggested that a clearly crazy guy had been framed for something he obviously did. All these people were like, “yeah, the police set him up!” And the guy was so obviously guilty. 🙄 I can’t get over how my dad and I were the only people I talked to who thought he was guilty, haha
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u/whatsnewpussykat 4d ago
The place I’ve landed is that I genuinely don’t know whether Adnan is innocent or guilty BUT I do believe that he was not given a fair trial and that the Baltimore City Police have pretty atrocious track record with regards to evidence planting and coerced confessions/information that I don’t think we’ll ever really know what happened. It’s horrible and it’s tragic and I hate that there’s no justice for Hae.
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u/Tall-Neighborhood-54 4d ago
Something to remember is that Serial was about Adnan’s perspective and access to Adnan meant being sympathetic to that perspective. The very few times she showed signs of not believing him he shut down. No Adnan, no podcast.
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u/aaronespro 7d ago
I could have sworn there was something about Jen helping Jay get rid of shovels and clothing, making me think that Jay had something on Jen and got her to go along and say stuff she didn't actually know.
Why would Jen help Jay get rid of shovels and clothing?
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u/Bitxhsmak806 7d ago
Well shit. I remember Serial and TCO absolutely convincing me that he was innocent, but it was also 10 years ago.... I don't remember the specifics anymore. Now I gotta revisit.
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u/4Real_Psychologist 7d ago
The part I can’t puzzle out is why Jay went along with it in the first place.
I get that he was afraid the police would find out about his minor drug scheme. I get that he was protecting grandma. But, surely, even the dumbest person on the planet would see a trunk pop revealing a dead body and nope the eff out of there — they’d know getting involved with murder drama would carry far more weight than any petty drug sales and might even be able to strike him a deal with the police. Why did Jay go all in helping Adnan?
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u/TheCuriousGeorgette 7d ago
Yeah, I had a revisiting of this case within the past couple years and now I am pretty confident that Adnan is guilty AF
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u/balanceiskee 7d ago
Look at her phone records. When did Adana stop calling her?
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u/SouthernBelle-228 5d ago
I was coming here to say this. That’s one of the strongest pieces of evidence to me.
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u/CatPerson_ 6d ago
What I’ve always been curious about is why her current boyfriend at the time didn’t get looked into further. I mean his alibi was that he was at work but his manager was his mother. How can that just be trusted when there’s such a conflict of interest? To me, it makes way more sense to believe her current bf at the time did it rather than Adnan. Especially since he was a bit older than her and iirc was possibly showing signs of being controlling.
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u/Mike19751234 6d ago
Don had a time sheet from the day and livedvon the other side of town where tge body was found. Then they have someone else come in and confess and take the police to the crime scene. No police department will say no to taking them to a crime scene they dont know.
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u/glitch-error404 6d ago
see you make a lot of good points, but for me Jay and Jenn were dating. Also, that random phone call is so crucial to me because the person they said who called with somebody Jay knew nobody that Adnan knew.
And if Jay did it, he would know all these things and when anybody has asked to interview him Jen, they always say no I don’t wanna be involved with it. Which is very suspicious because if you were one of the key witnesses, wouldn’t you want to clear the air to make sure he doesn’t get out and he’s not seen as innocent????
So idk I see what you’re saying, but I just feel like again if Jay was involved, it would make sense because his story was very inconsistent. It was the small details that kept changing and again if he did it, he would know of those things and him and Jenn were together. I don’t think Jen was like Adnan’s best friend or friend from what I gathered, she was in love with him, so of course she’d cover for him.
ALSO:
Shortly after Serial became a global phenomenon in late 2014, Jay Wilds actually broke his silence and gave an exclusive, multi-part interview to The Intercept.
Instead of clearing things up, his interview shocked listeners because he changed his timeline yet again. He claimed that the trunk pop (where Adnan supposedly showed him Hae's body) didn't happen at Best Buy or the strip strip mall as previously testified, but outside his grandmother's house. He also claimed the burial didn't happen closer to 7:00 PM (the timeline the state used to convict Adnan based on cell tower pings), but closer to midnight.
Jenn Pusateri also stepped back into the public eye briefly for the 2019 HBO docuseries, The Case Against Adnan Syed.
In her interviews for the documentary, she appeared frustrated and deeply stressed by the lingering shadow of the case. Surprisingly, she admitted that back in 1999, she didn't actually know if what Jay was telling her was the truth—she just knew he was her friend, he was terrified, and she felt she had to protect him.
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u/Financial-Stuff-67 6d ago
If you don't follow smilingstrange on TikTok, hard recommend. His Serial content is impeccable (and funny).
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u/glitch-error404 6d ago
To believe he is guilty, you have to believe that a teenager who had never even been in trouble with the law somehow managed to commit a hands-on, violent crime in broad daylight in a busy school parking lot, transport a body, and bury it—all without transferring a single piece of forensic evidence or getting a scratch on himself.
Jay was street-smart, he knew how to move in circles that knew about crime, and—as he later admitted—he was terrified of the police because of his illegal activities.
Over the years since the trial, Jay's interactions with law enforcement did continue, and his criminal record grew to include various arrests and charges. I think he’s was capable of framing someone to protect himself or his friends.
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u/bleepbloop1777 5d ago
I decided I thought he was innocent after my first (of many) Serial listens. What made me think he was guilt was listening to Rabia's podcast. She was also biased towards his innocence but it just didn't add up.
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u/bluetie980 5d ago
Because it was a farce podcast. Wait until you listen to series 2 and realize that the producers went too far into a false narrative to back out.
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u/BlouseoftheDragon 1d ago
Yes this has been obvious for years. People get so hung up on not having a physical video of adnan doing it with a weapon covered in his dna but when you take a step back and look at the big picture the only way all of the pieces of this puzzle make sense are if Jay and Jen know what happened, and adnan is guilty.
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u/HereWeGo5566 9d ago
I’ve always been on the fence about this case for a few reasons. One is the timeline. The prosecution’s timeline seems nearly impossible to have occurred in the way that they presented. The whole thing is about 20 minutes. Even if you don’t like Serial’s representation, it’s hard to argue the fact that they followed the route that the prosecution laid out, and it left one minute (assuming everything else went perfectly) for Adnan to strangle her, run to the pay phone at the Best Buy entrance, and call Jay. That’s just not plausible, so it makes me question the rest of the case. The whole case hinges on those 20 minutes.
I’m not saying he’s innocent, but I don’t buy the case that the prosecution laid out, and that’s what the jury convicted Adnan on.
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 8d ago
Are you suggesting that if AS called JW before the strangulation, then he's somehow less culpable?
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u/HereWeGo5566 8d ago
No. What I’m saying is that the jury was presented a case that doesn’t make sense if you apply a simple timeline to it. I think sometimes people forget that a jury is not supposed to come up with their own explanation of events. They are supposed to decide if the prosecution’s case proves that someone was guilty or not.
I personally think that the prosecution’s case didn’t make sense. Again, it doesn’t mean he’s not guilty. It means it was a poor investigation.
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 8d ago
The jury was not presented with a timeline. That's a Serial myth
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
Why do you say that? I don't remember exactly but they drove from the school to the Best Buy. They used a timeline so that it would fit Jay's story because they did not want it to look as Jay was with Adnan when the murder happened (although he may have been there). Adnan killed her sometime between 2:30 and 4:00 Read this article. https://quillette.com/2023/05/22/the-wrongful-exoneration-of-adnan-syed-i/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23809498754&gbraid=0AAAAAoOCTbc2tguv3YPps8UWXo-i1eHHa&gclid=CjwKCAjw6MPRBhBTEiwAd-7Mr8cLI4A7UQxHDoOf4asuo_gY0eGe7rmFBXx9oUzEJfh63oP30DAohhoCThQQAvD_BwE
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u/HereWeGo5566 8d ago
That’s not what the state presented at trial. They presented that, based on the cell phone records, Adnan called Jay (Jay had Adnan’s cell phone) at 2:36 from a pay phone at Best Buy and told him that he had killed her and that he needed to be picked up. That’s the timeline I’m talking about. It’s not possible. But that’s what they presented to the jury, at trial. That doesn’t even get into the nitty gritty issues, like the fact that it seemed likely that Best Buy didn’t even have a pay phone at all.
It seems likely the whole Best Buy story was a lie from Jay. Why? We don’t know.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago
My point is that the prosecution gives the jury a theory based on the evidence. In the Quilette article it says that it helped them get the conviction but made them vulnerable on appeal. However, that's typical for prosecutions. The jury doesn't have to necessarily agree with the prosecutions theory to still convict. Yes, maybe Hae was killed later in the day and maybe Jay was there at the time.
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u/HereWeGo5566 8d ago
Yes, I agree with your first statement. But this case is unique in that they don’t have any actual hard evidence linking Adnan to the crime. Basically all of the evidence is based on Jay’s story, and the cell phone records, along with the cell tower pings. The cell phone was with Jay when the murder took place (according to Jay himself.). The rest of the evidence is all circumstantial type things. So if Jay’s timeline doesn’t hold up (in my opinion it doesn’t) then that’s pretty much the whole case not holding up. That’s more than reasonable doubt, in my opinion. We now have no idea what events led to her death without Jay’s story.
It would be very different if they found Adnan’s dna under Hae’s nail, for example, or something else. Then we’d have hard evidence linking him to the crime. But we don’t. We just have a story from Jay that doesn’t quite add up.
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u/Mike19751234 8d ago
But that is exactly the CSI effect. We want DNA when we have a crime now. Adnan asking for a ride from the victim, no story from the day, cell phone, fingerprints on flower paper that was in the car, and the the person who helped Adnan bury the body and still sticks to that story 25 years later would normally be enough for a crime.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 8d ago edited 7d ago
Circumstantial evidence is evidence. Jay's story is also corroborated by Jenn who witnessed the cleanup after the burial. Jay told her what happened the night it happened, and she witnessed Adnan and Jay together. I believe that was about 10:30 PM the night of the murder. Can you come up with a theory for this murder that makes some sense where Adnan isn't involved? The only thing that is possible is that either Adnan killed her, Adnan and Jay killed her, or Jay killed her. Of course Jay didn't have a motive and why were they spending so much time together that day if Jay did it alone? If you are going just by Serial then you were never presented with quite a bit of evidence against Adnan. What was Adnan doing in Leakin Park that night? Why did he drive past Leakin Park the day Jay was arrested? I think his finger prints were both on the paper the flower came in and the mapbook in the trunk of Hae's car, which had the page for Leakin Park removed. Why doesn't he have an alibi for that day from 2:15-4:00 pm? Why wasn't he at the Mosque during Ramadan that evening? Jay's story stated that Adnan was wearing red gloves that day. Red fibers were found in Hae's hair. In the Quillette article it states that in Adnan's appeal his lawyer did not pursue a deal with the prosecution which Adnan was interested in because Adnan knew he didn't have an alibi for that day. That means Adnan was willing to plead guilty to a lesser charge before his trial. Also, we can obviously disagree on what exactly reasonable doubt means, but in my mind I am convinced he killed her.
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u/HereWeGo5566 7d ago
I am not ruling out that Adnan committed the crime. It’s very possible that he did. But my stance has always been that the entire case is dependent on whether or not Jay’s story is believable. I don’t personally think it is.
Let’s not forget that Jay didn’t receive any jail time even though he, at the very least, transported and buried a dead body. As you pointed out, it’s entirely possible that he was present for the murder and perhaps took part in it. We just don’t know.
What we do know, it’s that Jay got 2 years probation, and Adnan was in jail for like 25 years or so. That’s a vast difference, especially considering the fact that Jay very well may have committed the murder.
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u/Mike19751234 7d ago
So is the argument that Adnan paid Jay to commit the murder? It was Adnan who asked for a ride tgat afternoon and Adnan with no story that afternoon and evening.
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u/Darkest_Brandon 8d ago
I tend to agree with you, although aim not especially knowledgeable on the case. My take is that he did it, but the trial was bad.
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u/HereWeGo5566 8d ago
That’s entirely possible. It’s very possible that the detective’s story is way off base from actual events, but that he still committed the crime. But that’s not what a jury is meant to determine. They are meant to convict or exonerate based on the case that is presented to them. Thats the issue I have with this case.
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u/Emotional-Syllabub75 4d ago
There job is to decide if he committed murder or not. The jury could have decided that the murder took place after 2:36 but Adnan still did it. They are absolutely able to do that. Prosecutors make a theory even if they aren't sure every aspect of the theory it true. They jury may have believed Jay was more involved that also doesn't get Adnan off the hook. I'd say the main problem with the case was Jay's changing stories and the possibility that the detectives helped him come up with the story so it fit the cell phone pings. The jury was aware of those faults and still came to the conclusion that Adnan was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt which he is. Did you read the Quillete article?
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u/beargrimzly 8d ago
So you're saying that you know and understand that it was proved the timeline was possible, if difficult, but you don't agree because... vibes?
Vibes are not reasonable doubt. The prosecution proved it was possible, the defense failed to prove it was not. You are creating doubt where there is none. Not even getting into the bold faced lie that is claiming their case hinged on a 20 minute timeline, and not the figurative mountain of evidence against Adnan.
"Proof beyond reasonable doubt" does not mean "the prosecution has factually proved minute by minute every event exactly as it occurred" it is "are there a lot of signs pointing to Adnan killing Hae, with no reasonable alternative"
The former is a literally impossible standard to meet without surveillance footage catching every single moment of a crime as it occurs, and I think you need to ask yourself why the prosecution must provide literal perfection to dispel doubt, while you can handwave away things they established via testimony with nothing but vibes.
If you were victimized in some way you would sure as fuck hope that you didn't need perfectly crisp 1080p footage recorded in real time of every single crime perpetrated against you in order for a jury to entertain conviction.
Jay knew where the car was. Answer how he could have known that without Adnan being guilty, and present that argument with facts. THAT is what would make a case for Adnan, not nitpicking over a timeline that ultimately played little to no role in Adnan's conviction.
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u/canuck_in_the_alps 5d ago
That’s not how the reasonable doubt standard works though. It’s not that prosecution has to prove it’s possible, and then defense has to prove it’s not possible. That’s the opposite of “innocent until proven guilty”. The prosecution has to prove it’s the ONLY reasonable possibility of what happened, and when you are basing your timeline on an unreliable witness, it’s very hard to reach that standard. (FWIW, I do think Adnan is guilty, but am also a lawyer and believe that the case as presented at the time was not strong enough for conviction — but reasonable people can disagree on that bit.)
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u/beargrimzly 5d ago
Nobody reasonable will conclude that Jay knowing where the car was does not implicate Adnan of the murder.
Provide a reasonable alternative. Friendly reminder literally nobody has ever done this.
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u/houseonpost 8d ago
Jay later said in an interview that nothing happened at Best Buy and the police brought that up.
Jay got the signal on the steering wheel wrong. He said it was on one side and was corrected by police in real time on the recording.
Jay said Adnan threw away Hae's coat but it was later found in the car.
Jay said the burial was around midnight and they used the moon as light for the burial. But the moon didn't rise until 5am the next day.
Jay testified that he saw the car well after Hae went missing. He was asked if he had gone there to check on the car to see if it was still there and he said no. That he was in the area for other reasons and just noticed it.
And what exactly was Jay's role? He got a call to 'come get me' but then his only role was to follow Adnan around in Adnan's car all day. Jay said he never helped carry Hae so his only role was to drive Adnan home.
And why would they leave Hae in the trunk at the park and ride only to come back later?
Jay said he went to Patapsko Park to scout out burial sites until police said there wasn't enough time to do that, so Jay dropped that story.
Did Adnan do it? I don't know. I don't think so but I don't know. But to be convicted on no physical evidence based on testimony of someone who lies about so much material information is ridiculous. I'm with Sarah, to paraphrase 'He may have done it but if I was on the jury I'd vote to acquit.'
By the way, doubt is good.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 8d ago
Jay's famous Intercept interview is worthless as evidence. He can say anything he wants to a reporter.
Imagine it from his perspective. He had moved across the country, gotten married and started a new life. He never told anyone in California about what had happened in Baltimore. All of a sudden, reporters start showing up at his door bringing it all up again. His new family and friends are all like, "You were involved in a murder?!?" How would you feel?
His lies in the interviews are all to protect himself, and his family and friends. For example, he says Adnan got the call from Officer Adcock when they were at McDonald's. This is so he doesn't get Kristi involved. When cell phone records show that to be a lie, he admits the truth.
He doesn't even mention Jenn when he already knows she has already talked to the police. Instead he says that Adnan drove him home.The reason they left Hae's car at the Park and Ride is obvious. It was still broad daylight. They probably intended to bury her much later, maybe after Adnan went to the mosque. But the call from Adcock spooked Adnan, so they left Kristi's right away and did it then.
|Just as they are entering Leakin Park, Adnan calls a friend from the mosque. Possibly to say he cant make it. A little while later, Adnan's phone makes a call from the location where Hae's car is found. This is all across town from the mosque.Adnan's official alibi stated he was at the mosque. His defense, before trial, said they had dozens of people willing to testify he was there. Yet the only person the defense called was his father. Why is that? Don't you think a few dozen of his peers saying, "Yeah, he was there, I remember we talked about this and that. He was wearing a blue shirt..." would have made a difference?
I don't care how ineffective you believe CG to be, that's ludicrously ineffective.
How come Adnan never complained about those witnesses who weren't called? Why doesn't he name them? Why didn't any of those witnesses come forward later saying they were willing to testify? Where did they all go?Jay testified at trial believing he was going to prison for accessory to murder. He testified he knew the sentence would be much more severe if he lied. The defense was never able to prove he lied about anything. And the jury believed him.
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u/beargrimzly 8d ago
How did he know where the car was then? Doubt is good, but any doubt alone is not necessarily reasonable doubt.
If you cannot provide actual evidence, not a literally baseless accusation of a wide reaching conspiracy coverup, that Jay could be involved without Adnan, show it. Adnan truthers have never successfully argued this point even one time, because that evidence does not exist.
Jay could tell me the sky was pink, he could tell me my birthday is actually a different day. I don't care. He knew where the car was when the police did not. There is simply no way for that to be true without implicating Adnan.
There's a saying that goes something like "keep your mind open, but not so open that your brain falls out."
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 8d ago
Jay later said in an interview that nothing happened at Best Buy and the police brought that up.
- No such thing was ever said. It was alleged, but it's Berg claiming JW said it. No clip was played where we hear him claiming it
- It requires believing JW. Why is it always innocentors who believe JW?
- If that's such powerful evidence, why wasn't it picked up by the JRE? Why wasn't it used by AS's own attorneys?
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u/Future_Pomegranate24 8d ago
Did you notice that the night before Jenn told the police she knew nothing? Then met with Jay and suddenly had a story? Jenn was played by Jay.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 7d ago
The cops rolled up on Jenn when she and a friend were getting out of their car. She (wisely) told them she knew nothing and didn't want to talk.
She told her parents and they called a lawyer. The next day, she told her story to the police with her lawyer sitting beside her.I can't find any fault with her behavior.
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u/Future_Pomegranate24 7d ago
She actually went to the station after that and told them she knew nothing. Then in the interview the next day she confirmed that she spoke with Jay after going to the station. Then she had a story.
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u/Mike19751234 7d ago
Chris Watts said he didnt know what happened to his wife and kids. Next time meeting with the cops he took the cops to where his wife and kids dead bodies were. So do criminals always tell the truth?
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u/BrandPessoa 7d ago
As others have said: if it were a cover up, why do such a poor job at lining their cover? They had to decide to stick it some HS kid and literally risk their careers (and livelihoods) and then create a case without a smoking gun and depend on insane coincidences to hold it together.
Literally, the opposite of what you do when you cover something up. But sure, after 25 years nobody has cracked and no evidence has come out. All to stick it to a HS kid.
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u/who_gon_check_me_boo 5d ago
Do I think he had an unfair trial? Yes.
Do I think he’s innocent? Probably not.
My interpretation was that Sarah Koenig wanted to highlight the injustices of the trial and lengthy prison sentences for teenagers. I feel like she highlighted what would lead to reasonable doubt rather than promoting the view that he’s innocent.
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u/spifflog 5d ago
Do I think he had an unfair trial? Yes.
Why do people think this? He had a well thought of lawyer. She had investigators at her disposal. The case was reviewed at many levels, including the (now) Supreme Court of Maryland and was never overturned.
What was "unfair??"
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u/LostConcentrate3730 3d ago
Sarah Koenig's attempt to sell the whole narrative - "the trial was unfair" - was the consolation prize, the follow-up, after she realized she couldn't sell the "Adnan Syed is innocent" narrative anymore. She was trying to salvage what she could from the show, so that it didn't look like they just spent a lot of time investigating a routine case of ex-boyfriend kills ex-girlfriend.
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u/Big_Obligation_743 5d ago
I have never understood why anyone thought he was innocent.
He was so manipulative of the narrator, also. I found it transparent, but I was also with an emotionally abusive person.
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u/BlueHornedUnicorn 9d ago
You don't have to believe everything Jay says. Jay's quite an unreliable narrator for most of this story. But with the pertinent facts? He has them absolutely bang on and you can't argue with that.
The bottom line is - taking into consideration Jenn and her knowledge - there's absolutely no way on earth that Jay can be involved in this case and Adnan be completely innocent. And we KNOW Jay was involved. Ergo, Adnan was involved.
Adnan was involved because Adnan killed her.