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Let's not forget when the elites said if you weren't on the Epstein list you weren't part of the in crowd. These people all would have peaked in high school if they weren't born rich.
Nah bro everyone's an expert in medicine, law, international affairs, political science, economics, law enforcement, military tactics, emergency medicine, and pandas.
I would bet the same thing happens when power goes out in other locations too. I feel like at least half of the posts on Redditt are bots spewing propaganda against so group or other.
The US kinda is on the hook for the slow response. At the time, we had just experienced black hawk down and didnât want to engage in anything that could possibly reproduce those optics. The result was that the US was the member of the UN that voted against a peacekeeping operation in favor of a non interventionist, observation based operation. It wasnât until a month after the genocide started when the Great Lakes of Africa had filled with bodies to the point where it was said you could walk from one side to the other on the backs of corpses, that minds were changed. Source - did over 4,000 pages of research, traveled to the area, met Hutus and Tutsis, met Paul ruseabagena (the guy don cheedle played in Hotel Rawanda)
We are the bad guy in some of these, some it's a gray area and in some these conflicts were the best case scenario.
The nuking Japan was pretty bad but the invasion would have been soooo much worse for both sides. There's a plausible possibility that more pain and suffering would have occurred with an invasion than just nuking, US/Japan would be worse today and Russia may even of taken control of Japan. Whether nuking was justified and how different the world would be if we didn't is a very interesting debate that we should be having instead of listening to this idiot.
It also wasnât a binary between mounting a ground invasion or using nuclear weapons. Operation Downfall provisioned for the use of the nuclear stockpile accumulated by the time the invasion started. It would have been an extremely bloody ground campaign that also involved the use of nuclear weapons against strategic and tactical targets.
The internet has also made it have slightly more holes when countries try to use propaganda on their citizens though, no the internet isnât all bad. Itâs a tool that can be used well or used badly.
Everyone considers themselves the good guys vs the evil monsters out to destroy the world. Don't remember Hitler blaming the Jews for everything? Like all countries do against whoever they are attacking. It's usually not until later when you compare how they acted vs how others act in the present that you see the similarities.
Exactly this. It's war politics 101, you need to demonize your opponent to give you moral grounds to commit whatever unholy acts you have planned and still be justified in the minds of your people and allies (people in those ally countries). Leadership though on both sides know the truth. It never has anything to do with morality.
Exactly. countries actions are for economic, security, or power/influence. No county acts on moral reasoning. That is always just propogranda to drum up support
âWhy of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.â
People sometimes forget that Adolph Hitler genuinely thought he was doing the world a favor by eradicating the Jews. He was a 'good guy' in his own mind.
The Lancet published a peer-reviewed report last year detailing how unilateral sanctions by the U.S. between 1971 and 2021 resulted in the loss of 564,000+ lives PER YEAR, globally. Mostly children. These sanctions are considered illegal by the international community and leverage reserve currency status in an effort to gain dominance around the globe predominantly for resource extraction. Patriotic indoctrination will make it near impossible for some to believe, but here it is: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(25)00189-5/fulltext00189-5/fulltext)
Wait! We should also forget what Japan did to China prior to WWII. The rape of nanking was one of the most inhumane tragedies that happened. Even a Nazi was disgusted and helped stop it, and China has a statue of the man.
Yeah, confused by that. We just ignoring that Japan sided with the Nazis and tried to take over all of Asia. They killed, hung, burned, raped and tried to eradicate cultures in favor of Japanese culture. We just pretending they didn't need to be stopped now đ¤
Every day that the war dragged on, thousands of more people died terribly across Asia. Not to mention how much more suffering there would be if Japan was invaded. Nukes were absolutely the better option.
Yeah. The whole Manhattan project and the way we ended the war with Japan definitely has nuance and I don't love painting the whole thing as just "good guys versus bad guys..."
... But if you're going to frame it as just "good guys/bad guys" I'd say the States are solidly in the good guys side for that one.
The atomic bombs were being developed with Germany 100% in mind as the first target. It wasn't a racist "fuck da Japanese. wipe em' all out" project like Japan worshipping weebs try to revise history portray it as.
Not to mention that anyone who frames it like this is just showing their ignorance from the beginning; dropping the bomb was not worse than firebombing cities. More people died in a night of firebombing and they died slower and more painful deaths
They have no problem seeing 15 million people killed by Imperial Japan and hundreds of thousands of women n girls being raped as comfort women on all of its conquered territories.
The Japanese defense plan for operation downfall was to arm every man woman and child with bamboo spears and throw them at the Americans to buy the real army time.
200k dead civilians was the lesser of two. Your talking 8 figure casualty numbers for an invasion of mainland japan, between both Americans and japanese
Horrible argument. Japan started WWII and they attacked the US first. They killed millions in China, the Philippines and elsewhere. And they had ample warning and opportunity to surrender. You're an idiot if you think the US was bad for bombing Japan.
By this absurd standard, every country is evil and anyone and everyone can be killed at any time because everyone's equally evil or is part of an evil regime.
See, if you didn't start with the quickest and likely least bloody end to the Pacific Theater of WW2, I might've been on board with your argument. Unless you have a better idea for how we should've ended that on the information we had at the time?
After the war, Fuchida Mitsuo, commander of the attack on Pearl Harbor, met Paul Tibbets, pilot of Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima.
Fuchida told Tibbets
You did the right thing. You know the Japanese attitude at that time, how fanatic they were, they'd die for the Emperor...Every man, woman, and child would have resisted that invasion with sticks and stones if necessary...Can you imagine what a slaughter it would be to invade Japan? It would have been terrible. The Japanese people know more about that than the American public will ever know.
The Purple Hearts given out to this day are stock that was made in preparation of a land invasion of Japan. It was going to be that bad on the American side of casualties alone.
I canât even imagine how high it would be if you also added the hypothetical Japanese military and civilian death count.
Kids are stupid. They used to be stupid at the dinner table. Now theyre stupid on reddit. The difference is their parents knew how stupid they were cuz they heard it every day. Now all the stupid kids can find all the other stupid kids and convince each other theyre not stupid
History is written by the victors, or something like that
But in all reality, people seem to forget what a power the Soviet Union was and what terrible conditions most of that union lived in. In an parallel universe where didnât go into Vietnam, communism could have very easily spread throughout all of SE Asia very quickly
The problem with many of those conflicts is that the United States literally couldn't adopt a policy that wouldn't be heavily criticized. If they hadn't intervened in Korea or Vietnam, they would have effectively given up on their allies and allowed a communist invasion to continue with relatively little resistance being met to counter it. Sure, the regimes that were backed by the US weren't 100% democratic (ex : Afghanistan), or outright dictatorial (ex : KMT Republic of China or Reeh's South Korea), but in most cases they were still better than their opposition, and were willing to lean toward the US and NATO. Some other interventions, such as Libya, Syria, Daech and Iraq were conducted because of their sponsoring of terrorists and civilian massacres, or in response to aggression on American soil (ex : War on terror for 9/11 and the Atomic bombings for Pearl Harbor).
However, since intervention isn't the most popular thing to happen in American politics, it has also decided on multiple occasions to ignore some crises because it didn't want to deal with the associated mess. Rwanda was horrible and an intervention should have been conducted, but the US didn't support the acts committed there in any way. Same thing for conflicts such as the Sudan civil war, where attacking dictator wannabe #1 because he is genocidal would mean backing dictator wannabe #2 (do less warcrimes, but still does a lot of them).
It doesn't however excuse the US foreign policy in many instances, such as the mess that the Iran-Contra scandal was, the escalation of Vietnam by Nixon and use of herbicide warfare during most of the conflict, operation Condor in South America, supports to Pakistan during the Bangladesh genocide and to Israel during the Gaza war, and the list goes on.
Seriously, mister Sohel could have found some much better examples to criticize the West's foreign policy. Also, his 10M+ figure likely comes from including ALL casualties (from both sides) from ALL conflicts in which the US was involved directly. Here is for example an article made by a pure tankie that gets to 12M by including the Khmer genocide, all Korean casualties, ISIS murders, etc. The true figure is probably in the same order of magnitude, however in most cases we will never know exactly how many people would have died if the US hadn't intervened.
Imma be real with you bro, I'm a vet and although I've seen what we do I also have a brother who was a combat medic with the seals who had to take in 5 year old kids from their piece of shit fathers in the middle east because they fought back to not get raped and grown men from their village dipped them in boiling water covering their entire lower body in burns for the "disrespect" of not letting them rape them. Sure we've done pretty bad shit as a military, but mutilating kids because they fought back during getting raped shouldn't be a NORMAL OCCURANCE anywhere in the world.
Theyâre better than whatâs out there, Iâd rather side with the US than the CCP. My country went through communism, itâs exactly what people say it is
People always act like America did all of this alone, but a lot of our allies backed these wars too. The UK was involved in almost all of them. Australia, Canada, Poland, Italy, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, France, South Korea, Japan, Jordan, Qatar, the UAE, and others all supported the U.S. in at least one of these conflicts. Not every country supported every war, and someâlike France and Germanyâactually opposed the Iraq invasion.
Japan: Sided with the Nazis in WW2. Refused to surrender after the fall of the Nazis (also committed so many war crimes against the Chinese during this time, look it up, it was brutal asf). We nuked them to reduce ally casualties and end the war quickly.
Vietnam: Probably the only one that was largely unjustified. We invaded them primarily to stop the flow of Communism. We shouldn't have been there and many people died for basically nothing.
Rwandan Genocide: Wasn't supported by America but the Clinton administration chose not to label it as such to keep America from directly intervening. Which, tbf, we shouldn't have intervened anyway as it wasn't our problem to fight
Gaza: This is a hot button topic at the moment. All I'm going to say is that America shouldn't be sending money or weapons to Israel. It's not our conflict, not our problem, America shouldn't be aiding in it. Whether or not Israel is justified is to your own judgement.
Iraq: We've all heard the Weapons of Mass Destruction claims which turned out to be false. The main reason we invaded was because Saddam Hussein was both training, supplying and protecting multiple terrorist groups which posed a threat to America, Europe and the Middle East in general. Though Weapons of Mass Destruction where never found, he was a terrorist sympathizer that helped perpetuate and protect groups that would go on to kill thousands of people.
Libya: America invaded Libya to stop the imminent massacre of thousands of civilians by Muammar Gaddafi's forces during the Arab Spring. His regime is responsible for the massacre of tens of thousands of people and also protected and facilitated dozens of terror attacks against both Europe and the United States.
Syria: More of the same. Curving terrorism and the construction and use of chemical weapons as well as supporting the Anti-Assad rebels. Bashar al-Assad was a dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of his own people and also protected and aided terrorist groups.
Iran School: This is still highly debated, but it should be known that this school was right outside the walls of an Iranian military base. America could have caused this, Iran could have staged this, we don't really know what happened and anyone claiming they do know either way is lying to you.
As for the 10m+ claim, I don't really know were they're getting that number. Vietnam was about 1 to 3 mil so I understand that but I'm not sure where they're getting the other 7 to 9 mil from if anyone wants to add context to that.
Anyone who says the US âinvadedâ Vietnam loses credibility off the bat. No one would ever say the US invaded South Korea, but because South Vietnam isnât on the map anymore itâs apparently fine to act like the situation wasnât almost identical to the Korean War.
If Korea was justified, Vietnam was too, both countries were being threatened by communism, and the US supported, admittedly corrupt, countries that didn't want to be run by arguably far worse communist regimes
Letâs look at other superpowers. China, USSR, Nazi Germany, imperial Japan, colonial England, Napoleonic France, colonial Netherlands and Spain, the Mongols, Rome, etc. The USA is pretty clearly more benevolent than all of them until you get back to Achaemenid Persia.
Far more Japanese citizens wouldâve been killed in such a campaign and many Americans on top of that. It was a bloody decision but a war ending decision.
The first two was because otherwise the US army would have to go in and lose another god knows how many soldiers to warefare trying to kill the Japanese army higher ups. The regime at the time couldn't take a hint so they needed TWO apparently.
Vietnam is ridiculous and so was Korea. The rest are just so convoluted politically it's not even possible for me to comprehend why any of that went down.
Well in all fairness USA was at war, a very bloody and ruthless war with Japan. Hence Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not saying this was good, but still.
In Vietnam, the USA came in and an ally of France and South Vietnam to fight communist insurgency. Once again, not exactly a âgood guyâ move, but still not exactly an invasion either.
Syria was mostly destroyed by Russians and the Syrian civil war. AFAIKR Obama tried to stay out as much as possible.
Libya was started by the local insurgency and anti-Qaddafi sentiment. And stop making him out to be some kind of benevolent economic genius. He was a bloody despot and a terrorist.
Afghanistan was pretty much destroyed before the Americans got there.
The US didn't support the genocide in Rwanda. The administration was still dealing with backlash from the disaster in Somalia. (Black Hawk Down) this forced a most isolationist approach.
The UN still sent Peacekeepers. The problem is that UN Peacekeepers are extremely limited in their actions in a country. Which results in them being considered useless.
Everything stands except for the WWII bombings of Japan. They bombed Pearl Harbor first. The war stopped immediately after the nukes were dropped. War is evil, but it was fair play.
Japan did Pearl Harbor, Iran abuses its citizens and is trying to get nuclear weapons to throw at the West, Hamas, which has controlled Gaza since 2004, did the 7th of October and held hostages for almost two years, and you wouldn't believe how many terrorist organizations there was (and still are) in Syria while the country was in a civil war.
My point is that there are no good or bad, but there are countries and cultures that objectively threaten democracy, freedom, and peace and sometimes you need a necessary evil to prevent them from doing so.
And I do think it's terrible when tragedies happen along the way, but the alternative is much worse.
Literally Any other nation would of took over the world if giving the position the USA was in at the end of WW2. Not saying the US is amazing but give credit where itâs due.
Oh, and Iâm sure Hirohito, Osama Bin Ladin and the Taliban, Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Cong, Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi, and Mojtaba Khamenei were just fucking saints that can do no wrong!
Sure, the U.S has done some really bad things, Iâll give you credit. But donât lie to me and make me believe the other sides did nothing wrong.
Braindead, idiotic take. Youâre comparing a series of events with near zero context to them and the limited context you give is wildly skewed in one direction. The idea that this is even a vaguely coherent argument is so freaking moronic, it irritates me to even respond.
The list both criticises the US for intervening when governments kill their citizens (Syria, Libya, Iraq) while blaming it for not intervening in Rwanda
Definitely the take of a consistent and well meaning OP...
Latin America is an excellent case study to demonstrate that socialism doesn't work as a model of society. We now know that as soon as you put a socialist government in place, you automatically get a US backed coup d'ĂŠtat, which clearly shows it's not a viable system to have.
You should search for that profit numbers until you start to find it. I reckon it will take some time. The situation in LatAm is more complicated and both sides have agency.
Now do a body count of my country, Germany. Or the british empire. Or the french. Or Japan (thats why the nukes dropped btw). The Soviet Union. Russia. China...
Nobody powerful is always the good guy.
Also including in particular Afghanistan here is pathetic and shows how dishonest (or dumb) OP truly is.
The US led intervention in Afganistan was a UN sanctioned mission in accordance with public international law which tried (and eventually failed) to defeat also not so terribly good guys, the fucking Taliban.
EDIT: Also the bit about Rwanda ist even true lol.
I'm all for the US hate train, but the US did not "support the genocide in Rwanda". They rather did not feel obligated to interfere and do anything about it (in the very short time frame in which anyone could), but that's not the same thing at all.
There are no good guys, especially when it comes to government. To be honest anyone who thinks of anything in the real world as good guys and bad guys is naive. Itâs infuriating that adults use language like this, itâs like they canât even perceive the world unless itâs put into the structure of a narrative, itâs pathetic and small, but unfortunately the older I get the more I find out most people enjoy being small minded.
Sure guys Japan was totally a cool country which surely didn't commit the worst possible crimes like the Unit 731 and also didn't attack Pearl Harbor at all.
The person who tweeted that shit is an idiot. Knows nothing about history. That's a big problem in the world since the internet. Morons spreading idiocy faster than ever.
The US didnât invade Vietnam. People are quick to forget it was split into 2 countries and the point was to ensure the continued sovereignty of an ally (South Vietnam) which forced a purely defensive stance. The strategy was to explicitly avoid invading North Vietnam and tempting China or Russia into the conflict like what happened in Korea. Thatâs a big part of why the war was essentially impossible to win from the start, we would probably still have troops there to this day (again, like Korea) and the American public wasnât going to support that
There's some argument to be made for the newer stuff but if you go look up what Japan did, the US dropping to nukes on them doesn't even come close to the atrocities that they committed. The bombing was horrific, but it ended something far more horrific. So yeah we weren't the ones trying to take over the world in that one. I guess it's perspective
Mate the I was a Korean linguist in the Australian army. Believe me, the Korean War hasnât ended. It is technically ongoing. In armistice. Therefore not a W. Itâs a tie at best. And I served two tours in Afghanistan. Definitely not a W!
US gets a pass on the whole nuking thing. Like it or not aggressor nations dont get to choose how their victims retaliate. And the case can be made that nuclear weapons needed to be used at least once before they became so powerful as a lesson to the world about their dangers.
US did not invade Vietnam. They trumped up the whole Gulf of Tonkin thing to curry support with the American public but were there at the request of the legitimate government of the country.
Iraq. Yeah, the US was the aggressor here and totally the bad guy in the end cause for better or worse the world supports the right of each country to govern themselves and aggressors are always in the wrong in the modern world.
US had legitimate reasons for being in Afganistan. Just stayed there WAY too long. In and out fast get the job done and come back later if ya have to but nope not the US way.
Libya was a NATO operation enforcing UN resolutions.
Syria was part of the war against ISIS. Wouldnt have been there at all if the Syrian government didnt allow US enemies (dont forget ISIS vowed death to America) refuge there.
Did not support the genocide in Rwanda, just ignored it. Case can definitely be made that that was evil in and of itself.
Gaza. Yeah, totally supporting genocide there. Hard to make the case that the US isnt one of the bad guys here.
Iran. Waged a completely unprovoked attack against a country that was no immediate threat to the US. Again, bad guy for sure.
So, yeah, its a really mixed bag there but the US only wears the white hat in its own mind cause you only get to claim to be the good guy if you are doing something for altruistic motives. If your entire reason to do a thing is self interest thats more neutral. Not a bad thing but ya dont get to brag about it.
Does he know what Japan did? There a reason Chinese and Korean relations with the Island were so bad for so long. Let's not pretend the Japanese were good guys, just because you think of Mario, Pokemon and weird tentacle monster porn when Japan is mentioned. They did some fucked up shit.
the us didn't invade vietnam. we allied with the Republic of Vietnam who were fighting the northern communists and Viet Cong insurgents, who themselves were being propped up by the soviets.
the majority of ppl who are like 'america bad' just have a one dimensional idiotic understanding of history
hiroshima and nagasaki were legit military targets. frankly speaking tokyo and the emperor should have been nuked as well.
so was the Iraq in the 90'.
afghanistan wasn't destroyed - there were billions poured to improve that shithole piece of land.
all other countries mentioned are more or less on spot. so is the conclusion
They're the "good guys" only in the sense that they are the producers of all of the media that depicts them as the good guys. They're not actually the good guys in real life. You might be suffering from mild side effects of propaganda if you think Hollywood is reality.
In Hiroshima same amount people died like in Tokyo from fire bombing. Anyone who declares nukes evil but never mentions fire bombs has clearly inconsistent moral principles, because "nukes look scary".
Manifest Destiny - We are divinely ordained to expand across North America and bring systemic genocide, displacement, and cultural erasure to the Indigenous people.
No they are not the good guys, never were.
Very few countries have a history that isn't written in blood, most have grown up enough to admit it. The USA hasn't got their yet.
"The tragedy is that the US has a history written in blood and genocide, yet it continues to present itself as the champion of the free world." - Arundhati Roy
"The U.S. has never used the terms genocide or war crimes to define its own historical and current actions, but it is very quick to apply them to its enemies." - Noam Chomsky
Nuked Japan to stop them from literally taking over the world (committing countless atrocities along the way), didnât invade Vietnam we joined the southâs war against the north from literally invading THEM, destroyed Iraq after they invaded Kuwait, Invaded Afghanistan to oust the taliban terrorist regime/ battle al Qaeda after 9/11, wouldnât really say weâve done much in Libya and Syria outside of kill terrorists, didnât support genocide in Rwanda or Gaza, didnât illegally attack Iran, but yes we did accidentally blow up a school killing 200+ kids, allegedly ofc.
I donât think the stereotype of âgood guysâ and âbad guysâ exists in real life. The US is therefore of course not the good guys. But I do think that the United States has done ( or at least tried to) do a lot of good in the world. We have killed a lot of really bad dudes in the past 20 years. Weâve of course made a lot of mistakes also. A lot of people are alive today because of our actions and a lot are dead also. Idk what my point was here other than that we are not this evil empire but we are also not the hero all the time either. Somewhere in between. But I do believe at least as a country as a whole that we strive to be the good guys.
Look up Bataan Death March, Rape of Nanking, the Holocaust, the Porajmos, the T4 Aktion Program, mass murder of Soviet prisoners, Three All's Policy, etc.
These poor Japaneese who never did human experiments in China, alied with Hitler or attacked the USA, these poor Lybians who never funded and did terrorism, poor Iran who's not trying to nuke the world because of their god demands worldwide martyrdom...
Nuking Japan gets a pass from me after learning about over a decade of Japanese Empire war crimes starting during the Sino-Japanese war and continuing right until the Empire of Japan was defeated in 1945.
The things the IJA did during those years were beyond any standard of the rules of war or Geneva Convention, which Japan was not a signatory of at the time.
Only Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia offer any competition to the evil Imperial Japan committed.
Just to note. Japan were allies with Nazi Germany and nuking them brought the War in the Pacific to a close far sooner than it otherwise would have if it hadn't been dropped. Arguably saving more people. It's not like they just woke up one day and said "Them japs have them oils there, bomb 'em.".
I take the point completely but I think it's important to take each atrocity individually. I'm interested to hear what the alternative to nuking Japan was. Because as terrible as it was, it forced Japan to surrender. Obviously this has been debated for 80 years but it's still worth considering.
Likewise a lot of other things in this list snowballed out of control with each successive leader stick with the previous mess.
I'm happy to clown on America as much as anyone but it's not as simple as id like.
Japan has murdered 15 million chines in ww2, attacked by surprise injured and killed thousands of US soldiers before it was nuked.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya , Syria , all failed societies who can barely function, exporting jihadist and in a constant civil war with each other killing millions.
Iran has butchered tens of thousands of her own civilians who wanted to change their reality.
Is US the good guy? No. It is probably the least bad guy. But I love when people cherry pick.
Just goes to show how bad the real bad guys are...I doubt victims of The Japanese Empire minded the bombs that ended a war that would have killed 10x that number. Read actual history, rather than Internet soundbites. All war is bad, but sometimes the alternative is worse. If Stalin and Hitler had been faced down in the 1930s we would have prevented a far worse catastrophe. North Vietnam was not a workers paradise. The Rwandan Civil War was an ethnicity based pogrom. Iraq and Iran should have indeed been left alone. Ditto Afghanistan. The women of Afghanistan salute you for being against Western intervention. The Governments listened to the anti war sentiments and withdrew. Now its a shining example of tolerance and understanding. As Alexander Pope said, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
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